A continued discussion on the Amy Mihaljevic case after 20 years.
Saturday, February 20, 2010
Calling All Scenario's
This is as good a time as any to share all the different scenario's about this case that have captured our attention. Please feel free to share and comment on any or all of them. Moving on...
I'd like to state here first that I have turned in my summary of what this case looks like to me.In other words my opinion. I have not heard back anything and don't expect to, it doesn't work that way.I turned it in just a day or two before the 20 year anniversary.I do admit you will have to take some of it with a grain or two of salt as I did. Some things matched other things so perfect yet so far out there I could not or would not exclude them.
1. I have reason to believe that what ever Margaret told the police to start with caused the problem in the very begining.Was it? A. Margaret was getting divorced? B. Amy's father was a different man? Amy recieved a phone call,was it from A. A complete stranger? B. A stranger driving a white van? C. Someone in the family D. Someone who befreinded the family?
Where was Amy taken from? A. The shopping center? B. She jumped in a car driving by? C. Amy just strolled across the street on to Dover center Rd. D. walking back to get her bike at the school?
2. Was Amy taken to? A. The house in Bay Village across from the police station B. Kurts house garage apartment behind the mall. C. The house Bill Hayes refers to in Westlake beside the bank. D. The house on County Rd.500 in Ashland County. E. A possible cabin that James refers to in Ashland County. F. A cottage at Cinnamon Lake. G. Stagecoach summer music festival campground Ashland County. H. The killers personal home. I. The old bank barn on the same road Al Matlocks family lived on.
3. What was the reason Amy was taken?
A. WPP B. cult C. Drugs D. Mafia E. Sex crime F. to replace a child G. Porn movie
4. What was the reason for the blackout in the autopsy? A. Did they find out that Amy had been tied up B. Was the killer a sexual deviant C. Were some of her organs missing
5. WHO done it? A. Bond B. Billy Strunak C. Kurt D. Sam Tillerman E. Lamborgine F. Ross G. Runkle H. Richard Alan Folbert I. The Attorney? J. Police officer? K. Kapela-Dentist- soccer L. Fireman M. Shawn Tabellion-Dusky N. Accountant O. Al Matlock P. The math teacher Q. The Artist R. Boals S. School bus chaser T. Gary Wears U. The invisible boy friend FBI claim Margaret had
I may have forgotten a few, please let me know if I have. Let's not rule out a female and that there is a chance that it was accidental.
Interesting. I've never heard of some of the places and people on your post.
My take: Amy knew who was calling her, he knew her well enough to gain her confidence. They agreed to meet that fateful day. Amy walked up to the black van, the person told her to go wait by the ice ceam shop, (because they can't be seen together) a friend of his will come and get her, they walk to a nearby house, the black van person will meet them there. BVPD said that Burns had to have been mistaken by recalling the gold colored car with Runkle (alleged) and Amy in it. BVPD must have some other idea as to why Burns was mistaken. Perhaps an eyewitness saw them walking together is why they are so adamant that Burns is wrong.
Amy calls her mother from the phone in the home, where she is, her captors coax her into it. Margaret comes home frantic. She goes to the BVPD, explains that someone she is close to is involved in the WPP. Everyone jumps into action. Amy is en route or in Ashland County.
My guess at this point is there are at least a minimum of 3-5 men involved in this. Someone wanted Amy specifically, perhaps because of her ease of access or to hurt someone in the family. Was she tied up or drugged during this? Probably. If at this point Amy is seen in the Ashland area, sitting outside by herself, she definitely knows her captor, why is she not running, what is keeping her with him, it's someone she knows very well from BV.
It's odd if it was a sex crime and she was not violated. I'd say she was violated in some way, they just aren't saying. If it was sex related, there had to have been a ring of pedophiles that regularly networked. It could have been via the internet/usenet.
At some point she struggled and fought back, they hit her on the head, now they have to get rid of her. If it was the house on CR 500, you're going to have a lot of commotion in a small amount of time, someone would have noticed. Perhaps they did.
Amy is found, with Al Matlock's coat nearby (how close was his coat to her body.) That coat is returned to him.
Now you have a major cover up. People die in some very disturbing ways, disappear, go into hiding, stay silent...
Now you have a family left with this devestation, and they remain silent... Yes, Margaret did her best, may she rest in peace. What about the rest of them? I find the lack of action incredibly odd.
If they were in WPP, wouldn't they have to give up their "old life"? But Margaret went to Vegas to be with her Mother. Even if after Amy's death they "broke cover", don't you think more of their "past" lives would have come out?
Curious said: Now you have a family left with this devestation, and they remain silent... Yes, Margaret did her best, may she rest in peace. What about the rest of them? I find the lack of action incredibly odd
I can see your point but I am not sure how I feel about this. I know it changed her brother. In high school he ended up doing a study abroad program for a while. I think it was hard being known as Amy's brother. Plus their last name is not common, it isn't something like Smith, so people knew who he was.
As for her father, I don't know, perhaps he has just put all his faith into the BVPD, and is trying to live a normal life while they "solve" the crime.
Not that the Mihaljevic's were in the WPP, perhaps someone closely associated with them may have been, such as a person who was in the home, but not related by blood. Rumors have also said that Amy may have had a different father, who was in the WPP.
Keep in mind, something had happened or was said by Margaret to the BVPD when she went to them with the initial report of Amy gone missing, caused them to take immediate action (unusual), and the influx of FBI agents from the start.
I just thought of something, perhaps BVPD had a report, prior to Margaret coming in to the station to report Amy missing, that told of seeing a young girl in the company of a man and a struggle was taking place, or maybe seeing a young girl pulled into a vehicle. Hmmmmm....
I meant no disrespect for the Mihaljevic family, I certainly hope my comments weren't taken that way. Everyone is different. I stand by the statement of it being odd that no one from the family pushes for answers, in appearance anyway.
Amy and her brother look too much alike, I can't see Amy having a different father.
hmm, do you think because the FBI agent that would take lead on the case, lived in Bay, and had children in school close to Amy's age, this could have gotten a more immediate reaction?
It is possible they did have a report of someone seeing a girl being taken, but they did not have an official ID on the girl, until Margaret went to the police to confirm her daughter was missing.
I don't believe the amount of FBI agents in the area had anything to do with them claiming jurisdiction. Something happened that made them believe she was kidnapped and taken across state lines.
The FBI was already in the area doing stings because of the girls getting the pervy phone calls right? What if they believed the kidnapping was connected to those calls?
Remember this is sleepy Bay Village. All under the illusion that nothing could happen here. I highly doubt anyone called with a report of a girl being taken or the shopping center area would have been swarmed at that point.
On the other hand they did seem to go into overdrive pretty quickly. But I thought it was around 530 to 630 when Margaret went to the police. I was not of the impression she went straight from work to the police. Did she stop home first? Did she call some of Amy's friends first? I think I vaguely remember she called home first to find out Amy was not really at home. But if she did go straight to the station, what time was that?
In any event, back to my point - a quiet town, a hysterical mother, someone under the age of 13 - and maybe Amy did say something more in that call to her mother that Margaret only revealed to police. Maybe it wasn't a calm call - maybe there was a code word or it was a frantic call and maybe Margaret was not allowed to reveal that. - Therefore immediate police action.
Now, I heard about this early Saturday morning when a neighbor saw the 11p.m. Friday news and came over to tell me. I immediately went to the police station to volunteer to pass out flyers and get the word out, etc. I got a picture that the police had, made copies and hit the road in the immediate area of the Middle School. I went back in the afternoon to offer services to get a search underway and to make it public for volunteers -to which I was told they did not want anyone out searching anywhere for 'insurance reasons'. Myself and friends struck out on our own. I went back in a couple of days to suggest a vigil to bring attention to the cause - to which I was told they did not want to create such an event. Then the Amy Center was organized and all things fell to them.
I guess my point is there could be a deeper reason for all the police action but it could also just have been because it is a small town and this young girl clearly didn't just walk away because it is Bay. So, the police reaction I get but the large FBI involvement - well that just doesn't normally happen. Could Amy have said 'I'm okay but I'm on my way to Indianna?? Pennsylvania??' thus the FBI?? And could she have been told what to say? We all assumed Margaret revealed to the public a normal kind of call - but maybe there was something more to that call.
Yes something was and still is blacked out on the autopsy report. Ashland county and surounding areas were waiting to see what all was going to be released as to the findings. When the newspaper came out there was a blackout placed on it and we still don't know what it says.I'm sure James doesn't know either.
I'm fairly certain what your stating is correct as I found several different things that could and would lead the everyday person on the street to believe that something more sinister was at hand.
I had gone into a smoke shop to buy a pack of ciggs. in Medina. A friend and I had gone there to pick up a copy of James book which just came out. After picking up the book we went across the street to have super at the Red Lobster. At the time smoking a cigg. after eating was the thing to do and still permitted.Problem was I was out. After getting into the smoke shop I had mentioned the book to the cashier. She was getting ready to close but took a breif moment to say "Mark wasn't Amy's father". I was flabbergasted to say the least. "How do you know that" I asked? "Because my best friend was going with a cop that worked at the BVPD at that time and he told me". I tried everything under the sun to get her to tell me more about what she was told. She refused stating that she probably shouldn't have said that because she didn't want to get anyone in trouble.
Can anyone here see how this could fit with other posts already? If so refer back to James book about what the deli owner said. I'm not saying he was correct on all counts ,just a few.
There was a time lapse between Amy calling her mother (3:15pm) and Margaret leaving work (3:45.) If Amy was frantic, Margaret would have called the police from work or left immediately. Margaret left work shortly after the call, went home (4pm), went to the school, found Amy's bike, went to the BVPD, BVPD put out a call at 5:58pm of missing child.
I don't think any confrontation took place in the square, if that happened I think it could have happened with Amy walking back to get her bike, or the other way, Amy walking to a house nearby. It would have been quick. Perhaps a time lapse between what someone saw and a call to the police, by the time the police would have gone to investigate, it would have been done.
Just a thought, I had posted something on crime rant about an attempted kidnapping, from strangers, where they tried to pick up a little girl out of the blue. That was the post that caused all my other posts to disappear. So that's why I say perhaps someone saw a stuggle of some kind.
Here's my opinion: I don't think Amy was frantic or dropping secret codes when she called Margaret. I think mother's intuition kicked in to the point where Margaret couldn't ignore it any longer and she left work at 3:45, half an hour AFTER Amy called. If Amy had been frantic Margaret would have called police and left work immediately. Since I went to school with both "Maddie" and Julius I've heard both of their accounts of Oct. 27th 1989 and they both said the same thing: They never saw the man leading Amy anywhere. As soon as they saw the man put his arm around her shoulder and whisper in her ear then they turned their attention away from Amy because they both assumed it was her Dad.
I wonder a lot about Rick Burns. Why did the police not believe him or follow up?
Today there is a spot where you can drive from the main entrance through to the back of Heinens. The spot is between Avelone's (or whatever it is now) and the strip at the west of the center. I am positive that back when I was a kid, you could not drive through that area. There was a gap, but it wasn't wide enough for cars or there were poles up. I don't know, I just remember you could walk through there, but not drive. So, if you drove back behind Heinens, where the delivery trucks unloaded, you were dead-ended and had to turn around. Sometimes people parked back there and walked through the opening to get to the shopping center.
What if Amy's killer parked behind Heinens? Once they walked through that pathway next to Avelones, no one would have seen them get into a vehicle. And who's house is right across the street from Heinens??? Yep, the Van Gutens.
Does anyone else remember that area of the center and not being able to drive through there? I don't know when it changed, and I don't know what the set-up was in '89. Also, I can't remember if you could drive through to the Shell station from behind Heinens.
It was stated that Van Gunten attended the Bay-Fairview football game that night.
Also according to the Scene Magazine article - Amy was instructed to meet the caller in the parking lot next to Baskin-Robbins. - Next to Baskins would be Burn's Auto.
Also sounds like Amy called around 330. How far could they have gone from the time school let out - with witnesses seeing her in the shopping center to get her to a phone? Not far.
Lastnight I watched the Jaycee Dugard story again.I noticed simalarities in both cases. 1. small quite village. 2. people lived there to get away from the hustle and bustle of bigger towns. 3. safe place for their kids. list goes on... here's what caught my attention, They said they WANTED EVERYONE to help in finding Jaycee, they couldn't do enough things to BRING ATTENTION To HER CASE. So tell me again about this Bay Village wanting to put a lid on Amys case.This was back 18 years ago. Something isn't right about Amy's case being kept under wraps.
We think alike... 20 years, no solutions, tight lipped. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Big egos. A string of evidence is lost. Men dead, after the fact, in very odd ways. People that should have been interviewed immediately, were not. A little girl just vanished into thin air, while a PO stood not more than 25 feet away, and across from the police station. A small town with a high concentration of perverts. A two county connection, that no one can find an answer to. Evidence at a murder scene retutned to the owner, without question. Personally, I think it's time to get this case in the hands of someone else!
Between Shell and the plaza is a driveway that takes you behind the plaza to the back of Heinens and to the ATM drive-thru (directly behind the old Shell station they torn down). Once you get behind Heinens you can drive down behind the plaza to come out directly across from Mr Harvey's house. Or you can go around behind Heinens and come out more into their parking lot.
The police seem to think Amy called from the children's pay phone at Avelone's (they had two heights of pay phones). Did the police just assume this, or is there a witness that saw her there?
I think I saw this question before, but I didn't see an answer. Do Al Matlock and Kurt know each other? Is there a connection between Matlock and Kurt's father? How could Matlock not be questioned or charged if his jacket was found at the scene? I am certain anyone else would be!! Was Sandy ever questioned because of what she told Matlock about Amy?
My mom worked with "Maddie's" grandma and the day after Amy went missing my mom came home from work and told me this story. Her grandmother said "Maddie" told her that she saw a man approach Amy in front of Baskin Robbins then a few minutes later she saw Amy on the phone inside Avellone's and the same man was standing next to her with his hand on her shoulder.
Thanks Laura. I thought someone had said it but did not know who.
If it is true the man and Amy walked from Baskin Robins to Avelonies, then that was pretty bold. Not that, that shopping center is huge, but that was a long walk past a lot of people and stores. If Avelonies was the last place she was seen, then it is possible the man had his car behind Avelonies, and not over by Burn's garage.
Well it looks like Kurt may be their man in Bay. They are still looking for the man in the Ruggles area. This may be why they now are looking at Al Matlock. This could be the reason Amy's dad is not asking the public to help find the killer. They have already told him who done it, but can't prove it.
I have talked directly to the men that found the jacket. The jacket was not right up next to Amy's body, it was in the ditchline in the area.I was told by a credable source that they called Al Matlock in and questioned him, then gave his jacket back.
I have no idea if Kurt and Al know each other or if they are related. The authorities don't know who Sandy is. Bill Hayes called BVPD and talked with them, I don't know what the out come of that was.
Good point. I'm just wondering if at that time did Avellones have a store camera that when checked did not show Amy and the man on that day? That's the only thing that I can see that would bring doubt to what Maddie said.
I have to question also the death certificate. Were there two? The one that I posted and the one that was done by Cuyahoga coroner Elizabeth Balraj.Who's telling the truth? Is Ashlands death certificate just a puliminary one? What did James see?
Was it that E. Balraj and the FBI just done the autopsy? Than Ashland done the Death certificate? Either way there are parts of it that are blacked out and we may never see.
Liz, That's great about the cold case unit in Colorado! I've also looked into to contacting someone in Ohio. She's a former police officer, turned author. Check her out here: http://www.stacydittrich.com/ I know she's no longer in law enforcement but I'm hoping she might have some insight on the this case because when she was a detective she specialized in kidnappings and sex crimes.
I'm really not sure what to think of the Avellone's phone call story. I agree with Esora, that's very bold of him to walk past all those stores and people to the phone at Avellone's. I also heard a story that she was seen on the phone's at Heinen's that day. Thanks to the lack of police updates in this case, who knows what to believe???
I know who your talking about, her husband is LE in Ashland. Don't know how that's going to work out. I believe James has already talked with her also on one of her radio shows.
As for Avelonies having cameras, I highly doubt they did, and if they did I think it would be more aimed inside the store. I believe the pay phones were more in the vestibule of the store. Also, I can not believe that a pay phone in 1989 would not have a record of calls made from it.
I still think there is something to Balraj being involved. The Ashland corner had to of done an autopsy because James has been fighting with him to get a copy. If your office did not do it, then why fight? Why not just say, autopsy was conducted by Cuyahoga County corner??
The family has the right to request their own autopsy right? Could they of not liked the out come of the one done by Ashland, or perhaps the FBI did not trust it.
I believe Ashland did the autopsy. While it is a matter of public record, it is an active investigation that all parts may not be viewable, that's probably why whatever is blacked out. My guess is James saw some pictures, but not all.
Esora,
Liz already did a records search on the house and their names have disappeared from the records.
To all,
Thanks for looking into someone to take a look at this case, but I don't know how that will work, FBI has jurisdiction, BVPD have jurisdiction, I highly doubt they will let someone else in, unless they are pressured to. This may have to go to a news agency in order to put pressure on them.
I've been following this case through Jim's site, Crime rant, and now here.
On the Cuyahoga county auditor's website, I was able to find the property transfers of the house on Bassett. That is, if I have the right house- 4th one down from the corner of Crocker and old Bassett, right next to First Merit bank. Were these incorrect? The transfers go back to 1975.
I just didn't know if this would be at all helpful.
It states the name of a person that owns it now. It also shows the name of the person who owned it before.The problem comes in where it doesn't show who owned it in between, or that it was a sheriff's deed.And of course the name is different too.
OK this is confusing, JW inherits property in 78, JW sell property to JS(former trustee) in 85, *Somehow the sheriff owns the house at this point* and sells back to JS in 89. JS gives property for $10 to WW in 90.
One possibility for the property - if JS owned the property in 85, he/she may have used it as a rental property. If drug activity had occured there, the property could have been seized. Assuming it was a rental, he could have gotten it back - otherwise who the heck knows what went on there.
Yes, that is the address I was looking at. So, I take it the auditor's website doesn't match the documents at the office?
I saw on the website that JW & LW got the property in '78. In '79, it was transferred just to JW (divorce?). Then JW transferred to JS in July '89 (Sheriff's deed). Then JS transferred to WW & MW in Jan '90 and they are the current owners.
I figured this was probably too simple but just wanted to put it out there just in case.
If the house was a rental and illegal activities were conducted there, the court would have to prove the owner was involved in the illegal activities in order to confiscate the property. Since the owner was an attorney, he more than likely would have been disbarred, that did not happen.
You are missing an owner of the house in 1989. I am pulling the record right now. This "owner" does not show in the transfer history on the auditor's page. Will tell you my findings in a few minutes.
In this area, rental houses generally have to be registered with the city. Has anyone tried to contact Westlake to see if this house was one at the time?
Ok pulled the record. The name of the "owner" was actually the name of the sheriff. On the deed it shows a bank taking actions against JW, and then JS did a civil case against JW. So it looks the like house was involved with the sheriff because of a foreclosure/mortgage issue, and not taken do to illegal activity.
The sheriff took the house on May 18, 1989, and then put it up for auction on July 3, 1989.
Curious is correct, it looks like JW did give the house to JS in 1985. On the second page of the deed is a payment stipulation that JW is to pay JS and RG $32K. So I wonder if, JW never paid, and that sent the case to the court/sheriff and ultimately the house being sold at the sheriff sale and JS gaining the full control over it.
I also find it interesting that JW is giving the house to JS and RG, but he is the one that has to pay, you would think it was the other way around in the deed.
After looking over things again, I think JS might have been JW's lawyer. And that although it is listed a mortgage deed, it sounds more like a deed of trust, where a 3rd party holds the deed (could be a lawyer) until the debt it paid.
No where on my paper does it show 1985.It starts J.W. 1978.The first name is Jeff S. not John S.7-25-1989 Then it goes to W.W. 1-22-90. Does any of this sound right?
It could show who lived there just before Amy went missing. The conversation that Bill Hayes overheard Al talking to Sandy about sounds like Sandy also knew who Amy was. It could be the people in that house know the man that picked up Amy, it could also be the place Amy called her mother from,it wouldn't show being long distance.
In a few days I'm going to post another page that will be very interesting in content and will show how some of these things being said could match up.
Did Attorney John Shepherd have a son named Jeffery?
I just heard back from the author and former police officer, Stacey Dittrich, that I contacted about Amy's case. Talk about fate! She told me that she's currently writing a book about unsolved child murders and abductions and was just starting to write Amy's chapter when my email popped up. Then, she left to give a speech and was approached by Janet Seabold (the woman who found Amy's body) who asked her in she knew of the Amy Mihaljevic case. She said she started to tell Janet about James Renner's book when Janet told her that his book was full of incorrect details. And to continue the irony Stacey Dittrich's husband was the deputy sheriff who took the 911 call from Janet Seabold when she discovered Amy's body. She's going to call me so we can discuss Amy's case and see if she wants to pursue this any further. Even if nothing come of this, it's good to know that someone else is writing a book about Amy. It will keep her name in the media...
That's exciting news, keep us updated on what's happening with that.
As far as James having incorrect information in his book can you speculate on one part? You have to remember the book was written from his perspective.James called the book Amy, my search for her killer.So it probably won't match everything other people think happened.
Where did these people Sandy and Dave live? I am reading the Crime Rant comments (never had seen this before, I just googled Billy and Amy and it popped up). I can't tell. Someone is implying they were in the New London area, not Westlake.
I looked that the papers you emailed me and they don't match what mine have on them.So it looks like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
Back when all this stuff happened Bill Hayes was a freind of Al Matlocks,That all changed when Al ratted on Bill and Bill went to prison. From that point on Bill has always said he thought Al killed Amy.Bill was the one that overheard the conversation between Al and Sandy in the Westlake house. Bill was also the one in the front yard of that house when Al pointed over to the back of the Mihaljevic home and said that's where that little... lived they killed.Bill has been trying to get the BVPD and Ashland County to listen to him for years, and nobody does. Bill is the one that knows the jacket was given back to Al. Lastly Bill is the person that saw James ad in the newspaper wanting information on the case for his book.
Is it Al's brother that is in jail for killing his girlfriend, or is that just a friend of Al's? (I gave up on the Crime Rant thread too much nasty going on).
So do you think "JS" is the "lawyer" James lists as one of the suspects?
Dave and Sandy are from Westlake. Bill (not Billy) Hayes is from the Nova area. Al Matlock is from the Sullivan area. Sullivan and Nova are only 5 miles apart. Paula is from the Ruggles area and that is 5 miles from Nova and 10 miles from Sullivan, and 4 miles from New London in the other direction. Jan Seabold who found Amy was a block over(1281) from where she was found. Amy was found on 1181 which is in between Ruggles and Nova. We don't who all Al knew in Westlake but he did live in Sullivan with his grandparents.
Doyle Wayne Matlock is Alvin Dewayne Matlocks cousin, Doyle is the one that killed his girlfriend.
As for "JS" I'm kinda leaning that way.I'm not sure if James is thinking about this person or not I've told him. It looks to me like the police officer would be the cop in the shopping center. James book page 219. If it is the cop from the book then everyone in Bay should know who was on duty that day in the shopping center.
I don't believe Al ever used a lawyer for anything in his life it appears. Al wasn't the kind of person that went by the rules he broke them. He is sort of like the hit and run driver.
Back when all this stuff happened Bill Hayes was a freind of Al Matlocks,That all changed when Al ratted on Bill and Bill went to prison. From that point on Bill has always said he thought Al killed Amy.
The way this is written also sounds like Bill could have been angry enough to blame Al for anything to get even. Anyone consider that?
I honestly have no idea about the "incorrect details" that Janet Seabold could have been referring to. If I had to guess I would say she was probably referring the part in the book about herself??? What else could she know for certain was incorrect?
So I just got out the Amy book. What's incorrect in chapter 12, Liz? Fill me in. The other thing I forgot to mention that Stacey Dittrich told me was that when Janet Seabold approached her and began talking about Amy she started to cry and said that she has been haunted by Amy's death ever since she discovered the body. That made me feel so sad and sorry for her.
My mistake,I ment to say chapter 30. Joann Stillion did not live near Bay Village she was from Elyria and lived in Ruggles.No one knows how Margaret knew Joann for sure. Pat Stokes met Margaret while Pat was selling raffle tickets from the school.Margaret was at Joanns house when Pat stopped to make a sale. Joann and her husband were close friends of the people in the log house. Bill Hayes said Al Matlock was related to the people in the log house. Paula never knew the people in the log house or Matlocks. Paula's husband knew Bill Hayes.
Anyone would have been devastated at finding a dead body, especially a child.When your minding your own business then see such a sight, well what can I say..... Janet Seabold wasn't the only cryer when it came to the thoughts about Amy. Bill Hayes was another person that couldn't contain himself when thinking that he might know the person that took that childs life.Bill Hayes has his own children and the killing of Amy doesn't set well with him at all.
Janet Seabold left Ruggles to get away from everything that happened. I have no idea why she came forward recently.It takes time to heal from shock.....
Bill Hayes is not the get even type of person.Bill is the kind of guy that will not use foul language in front of a female,he thinks before he speaks, and he always says thank you.
Bill was at the house in Westlake with Al Matlock, he went there with Al to get drugs. Al was friends with Dave and Sandy who lived in the house at that time.
The other incorrect thing I found was where James said Al and Dave were in the kitchen and Bill overheard them talking about that little girl. When it was Bill overheard Al and Sandy talking in the kitchen, Dave wasn't home yet.
Dave drove a newer semi truck with the letters D&S on the side which stood for Dave and Sandy.
In late October of 1989 these men needed a child.One of the men knew of Amy. A plan was made and carried out. The plan was to take her right under everyones nose.
IT WAS THE POINT OF THE GAME.
Step by step they played the game. First to make that call to Amy and to set it up, then to make Amy take part in the THE GAME. He told her of her mothers job promotion... So he was in touch with the mother at some time, or knew about her work. THE GAME grew more intense as it played out. There was an arrangement made to pick up the child (Amy), right in front of the police cheif. So why not across the street from the police station? Which just happened to be the Bay Shopping Center. It was also the day Amy's school had an officer there to speak to the children about Safty. "HA.HA".He said.
AS THE GAME GOES ON.
The man makes a phone call to Amy's mother and puts Amy on the phone to speak with her mom. THE GAME is so intense by now. They could hardly get her to the place where the END would BEGIN. There they killed her(Amy).Redressed the body and kept a souvenir. Took her to a freezer and there she was kept until it was time for THE GAME to continue. A phone call was made to a television station that Amy's body could be found in a location so odd know one would believe it, not even the police. It would be the Sullivan area in Ashland, County, where the crime rate is kept low. So Amy's body was made ready for the trip. There may have been a change of plans at the last minute, for some remote reason. But still in the Ruggles-Troy-Sullivan area.
SO BE IT
February 8TH,1990 around 7:30 in the morning, a jogger finds the body. The call is made to the sheriff's station in Ashland, where THE GAME goes on. The officer does not believe he is going to find a body on twp. rd. 1181. But when he gets there the reality sets in. There she is, Amy Mihaljevic. Right where they said she would be found.
Now who's the players?
This story was written because there was too much information and not enough Evidence. 7/9/02
Written based on information found in local libraries and very helpfull concerned people.
Yes a call was made to a TV station. According to the article:
FBI and a television station recieved a tip about a month ago from an anonymous caller who discribed the rural area where Amy was and demanded $20,000 to provide additional information.
The article did appear in the newspaper on 2/13/90. There was some people who speculated as to the reporters intent, claiming they thought it was made up. However there could have been no way the reporter could have known before hand where the body was.
hmmm this puts a new spin on things. Why would they call the FBI/TV? Were they proud of their work? Or wanted to make sure when they did dump her body, it would be found?
There seems to be taunting of the law in this crime. Meeting across from the police station, and then to call the tip in of the body location.
I'm thinking that it's one of the guy's in their little group that made the call. I figure it's because they needed money for drugs. If that's the case then I believe Al Matlock would be the most likley canidate. Remember what he said in the yard "they" killed her,which left him out of the picture as the killer. Al was the one that needed drugs,that's why he took Bill Hayes to that house to start with. We know too that Al didn't work anywhere so he had to get money for his habit someplace. Remember too that he lived close in the area where Amy was found. That's why I'm thinking it must have been Al. I could be wrong.
It definitely appears that her body was stored somewhere for a long time, or the call would have been made earlier. It would be more feasible to do that in a rural area than Bay Village. It sounds like the killer is from the New London area, but had a partner from an area close to Bay.
What I can't figure out is why LE hasn't picked up the most obvious suspect. He might have left his calling card. Who would be protecting him?
Are you keeping track of how many people we have that could be involved so far? 1. The guy that Amy knew,that befriended Amy. 2. The guy that picked her up, the stranger. 3. Al Matlock that was probably the one that dumped her. Moving on...
I believe it's LE that is protecting him. Why, because they know that "one of their own" as they put it, are into the same kind of things and just may have been involved too.
I believe your right about the killer being from the Ruggles area and not from Bay. Yes he had to have had a partner. I believe he had a connection from Bay. An unknowing connection. I believe that person to be Ruth.
I have talked with him some about her. Ruth is not happy with him from putting her picture on the blogg. There really isn't to much to say about her that I know of. I don't know what kind of trouble Ruth got into from James posting her picture, but what ever it was really made her mad. With that said, I'd say she opened her mouth when she wasn't supposed to! So then what does Ruth know?
Someone from the Bay area should know who Ruth is,what was she doing in regards to Margaret,Where did she worked ,if she worked , where did she come from and why.Whats the deal with her, did she have family there also.If so who are they. Why would she tell James that she has a new family now?
There is definitely something there... Someone posted here that they were close to Amy, surely they would have some information. Was the babysitter graduation party video that James posted, for Ruth?
What do you know of Roger Martin in Ashland County, convicted pedophile, (court records), any relation to the deputy??
Is LE the police/sheriff from the area Amy was found?
If they needed money, why not try and ransom Amy? Even if she was already dead, they could have tried, instead of admitting she was dead and asking for money for her body's location.
I don't know that Ruth was the babysitter. So far the only thing said about Ruth is that she was a friend of Margaret's that for some reason hung around the kids and cut Amy's hair and showed her how to cook.That would be a question for James.Who was the babysitter?
Liz, I think the person that befriended her (phone calls and etc) and the person that she met at the shopping square are the same person. I just watched a video on YouTube, and her father Mark, said if Amy didn't know you, she would not of talked to you.
But I am starting to agree there are more people involved. Perhaps the person that was in charge of holding on to her once, the person took her.
I don't know why they wouldn't ask for ransom unless they thought they would be implicated in the murder. They seemed to know about it some how.That's why I think it was Al, he didn't do it but he knew of it and could make a profit from it. He probably wanted enough money to get out of Dodge! Al would have gone to prison if they cought him for the rape of the other girls.He needed a way out and that costs money.
I believe that the person she befriended made the initial call then put the stranger on the phone for Amy to talk to. After a few calls from them he would not have been a stranger to Amy, they just wouldn't have met in person until they got together the day she went missing.
So assuming Al is the one that dumped her body. I think it is strange that even though he did not get his 20K out of it, he still dumped the body basically where the "caller" said.
"The stranger" - wanted a girl/Amy for something. Got someone, possible someone that it would be hard to connect back to him, to "befriend" her and ultimately take her. And then we have the "remover" the person who after "the stranger" was done with that he wanted had the task of dumping her body, but tried to profit from the crime.
Here's another reason it could have been Al that made the call. When the other guy's in that group found out that Al had tried to narc them out in Amy's murder they could have snuffed him out. So he left the area never to return again. Looks like Al to me.
I am still am puzzled. Why dump the body where the caller claimed? Is this where the "stranger" demanded and he had to stick to the plan? In theory, why not just bury her somewhere, instead of dumping her body somewhere, where it would be found, and in an area a caller had claimed?
It was so close to the log cabin where Al's relatives lived that he could stand outside and watch them poke around that field for clues.
It was also in the area where claims were made that cult activity was going on and they could use it as a cover for who done it. As if to say the cult done it not them.
So then, do you think it was part of the "game" that she HAD to be found, so they could sit back and laugh and watch the police try to solve a crime, the perpetrators thought they never would?
A former FBI agent that worked the case told Renner that some law enforcement believe there also may have been two men involved in this crime. Reffer back to James site 2/17/10... Kurt VanGunten is Mr. Harvey.
In general if there is more than one person involved there is a game plan. Maybe that's where Paula came up with the "GAME", She noted more than one person.
It's my opinion that's why Al was at the log cabin house of his uncle that day. I believe Amy was put there just the night before. Up until that time I believe she was kept in a freezer.
Liz, I have a hard time believing that Amy's body was there for a period of time without being seen. The jogger saw her right off the bat. She wasn't far away from the road, right? But then I remember that it was said in the autopsy report that there was evidence she was there a long time. What do you think of that report? I'm a little perplexed when they talked about the seedlings, since it was late fall when she was taken and dead of winter when she was found.
I believe that Amy was only there overnight,possibly a day and a half at the most. Several different people have stated they were in that field hunting and saw no body. As for the seedling, It could have been winter wheat. No mystery there.
Okay, thanks, I didn't put it together about the winter wheat and I just had to google its growing cycle. But the autopsy did state it was growing through the clothes, as if her body was there a long time and apparently winter wheat sprouts before freezing occurs, then becomes dormant.
As to the report, I don't agree with the findings,as to the body, she couldn't have been more than 20' from the road. There is a deep ditch then a fairly high bank then the field.It wasn't the kind of place where you could just jump out of a car and walked right over to where the body was.
In comparison, today the wheat would be approx. 2" tall. When Amy was found it was the first part of Feb. This is the last of Feb. so not a whole lot of difference in the size.
Well, like I said, I have a hard time believing her body not being seen all that time. I saw one of Renner's YouTube videos that had aerial shots and her body didn't seem far from the road. But these "findings" from the autopsy report, seedlings in the clothes and her teeth when she was found seem to contradict that. If I'm not mistaken, I think the BVPD thinks her body was there for a period of time based on those findings. But again, it's hard to believe she wasn't seen, I know it's rural but people do live and drive on those roads.
The only thing that comes to mind about not being seen for the short period of time that I believe she was there ,is the Snow.It wasn't a lot but enough to cover the body untill the sun hit it.
Was there a lot of snowfall prior to finding her body? That might be hard to recall but I'm wondering if that was brought up as an official explanation. Based on the findings, I would imagine her body had to have been there prior to January. Did anyone report seeing something in the field prior to the jogger? From what I understand, there was something that they thought had been covering her, but it looked like it had blown off. I don't know what the area looks like but I would imagine a truck going by would have a better vantage point than a jogger would. How obvious is the place where she was found when driving by?
So, do you think the findings were falsified? Not only the autopsy report but the crime scene where she was found?
It's strange that Al's uncle didn't see anything in that field. How close is his cabin to the site? The same field?
It was a warm winter, there were days when some snow fell and others when they had to use a snow plow to clear the roads. Which I might add at this point is what I feel got Amy on top of that knoll (snow plow hit her knocking her into the air and landing in the feild where her teeth were embeded in the ground, there was no other reason I could find for that).
No one saw her there before that morning.The day before several men(I spoke to) and their dogs were in the field and not one dog found her body. In that area there are wild animals,wild dogs and such looking for food, to the best of my knowledge the body wasn't touched by them.
As for being seen from the road driving , the bus drove that rd every day, if you were in a car you would of had to look up to see the body, a bus driver or truck would only have to look over to see it.
The log house, I don't think you could have seen the exact spot where the body was unless you were in an upstairs widow,I don't recall they had an upstairs.Either way county rd. 1181 ran up a grade from where the log house was.It would have been difficult to see I believe.That would be coming in from 224. Coming in from the other direction you couldn't see anything from where Amy was except the top of the old farmhouse.
I don't think the autopsy was falsified, they just can't figure out what happened to Amy to start with because of the way her body looked I think.It's a toss up, was it cult related, because that is what was in the area,or a vendetta against the father which by the way claims were made Mark wasn't her father.Was it drug related? Or was it just plain old hiligains that used the things that went on in that area for a cover knowing authorities would never figure that out? I can't see Amy as a drug user, so that's out.Even if Mark wasn't Amy's real father he took care of her like his own and his job couldn't have pissed off that many people,vendetta, hog wash. Cult just as an after thought so the real killers wouldn't get caught!
The only thing about that crime scene that was screwed up was when the Ashland County Coroners investigative wife blew her nose on a kleenex and then dropped it on the ground! And of course they all walked over the immediate area. Ya know they closed that rd. twice. Why do ya think they done that?
As to your question about Roger Martin, I don't believe he is related. I thought his name did sound like I'd heard it before and questioned why. He is not the sheriff nor has he ever been. He likes to make porn movies and take pictures of that nature. You can find his info. on the Ashland County Court site with the rest of the peds!
The reason I asked about the Martin's. On Crime Rant, someone posted the comment "the Martin boys did it." they lived in the log cabin.
Who lived in the log cabin at the time of Amy going missing and being found? Who was visiting there at that time as well? What was Margaret's connection to the home?
The people that lived in the log house at that time was named McCain, Not sure of the spelling. As far as I know.
As for the people who went there,I can't really say because I don't know. I know the people were not friendly and that Al and Doyle Matlock were both related to them. There are a few tales of these people ,like the guy use to keep a photo album on the coffee table with pictures in it of dead people from a war.I had also heard of one guy that was there who was a bad ass ex-con. I know that the man of the house was getting a divorce and set the house on fire to keep his ex-wife from getting it. He had parked his car to close to the house and it was damaged also. He also fought with firemen to keep it burning.I believe her name was Dixie. He was very mean to her. I don't know where she is today.
As to Margaret,the only thing I can do is repeat what was said by Pat Stokes, who was at Joann Stillions house. reffer back to an earlier post.
Regarding the seedlings. Perhaps Amy's body was not kept in a freezer, but an old barn. Since it was winter it would have been cold enough to slow down decomp. Perhaps in this barn is where she picked up the seedlings.
But I agree with Liz, I don't think she was in the field for very long. I think she was placed there within 48 hours of her body being found.
Since James seems to like to not post all comments, I am going to say it here. On his blog on 2/25/10 he posted about Dwight W. Baldwin. A man that took contest forms from Tower City and called women, including one in Bay Village and made sexual comments. I really think James is reaching, and for me it is taking away from the real search. Yes Baldwin is a perv, but he was called ADULT females. Now if he was calling 10 year old girls then it might me different. I just am deeply disappointed in the direction James' blog has taken. -end of rant-
I agree with you about the Baldwin guy. I don't think that Amy would have agreed to meet her caller if he was making sexual comments to her on the phone. I've always imagined that the guy who called her was "chatting her up" and trying to appear as friendly as possible. I think that if he made sexual comments towards her she probably would have been scared and hung up. It's also so important to remember that he claimed to know Margaret and to work with her. He must have said something that that made Amy believe that he did know Margaret, maybe something related to her job or something more personal. The best evidence I can offer of this is that Amy referred to him as a "friend" to Kristen Balas, Olivia and other classmates.
There is something I have been meaning to ask you. We were in the Middle School at the same time. Did they announce over the PA that Amy had been found? I have a memory of being in the library sitting at one of the work tables, and them announcing it over the PA. Am I remembering this right? Because in an article I just read, it said Mrs Sabo told her daughter, Amy's body had been found. (Did Kristin not go to school?)
I do not, that place is at the intersection of 126 and 1181 across the road from the farm on the same side. Look it up on google earth and look just past the farm there is a new house that sets back just a bit,just past that is where the body was found.
Let me explain about that freezer. It was at an old abandon house on county road 500, just a few miles from the site Amy was found. The freezer was not plugged in as there wasn't any power or power lines.
I went to middle school at St. Raphael's. I knew Amy because we had horseback riding lessons together. Later, I went to Bay High with Jason. I think it said James' book that Kristy was home sick on the day that they found Amy's body so that's why her mom told her.
They made an announcement when we were in 5th grade. They only said it was unidentified, but we all knew better. Then later in the day, or the next day, they brought in a bunch of counselors.
It does look that way.You have to remember it is all farmland. They did build 2 houses, one on each side of the road from co.rd 126 to 16 on 1181 the part Amy was found on.
It was a warm winter that year,with all the school buses,UPS trucks,snow plows, paper carriers and the daily traffic you would have thought someone would have seen her IF she was there the intire time.
The people(I spoke with) in that area speculated that the freezer was left in the house because it was an old freezer and heavy and hard to move. The freezer may have been left in the basement.The house was burnt to the ground a short time after the FBI helicopter,(that had landed and went in and took evidence out by the bags full to include sections of the walls and flooring) left.It was said that the Savannah fire dept. was called to burn the house down.That house was empty since 1976. There were a few transient people living there for a short time.The locale kids made it a party house because it was empty and it set back in the woods about a quarter mile from any road.
Can you post a link to the log cabin house along with the spot Amy was found? If that house is on CR 1181, there is no record of it, or I'm looking in the wrong direction.
Go to google earth, find on there State Route 224 and State Route 60(where they come together).Now go east(towards Lodi) two roads down from 60 is 1181.It does not cross 224.So you would go left(if you were driving) go down, over the railroad tracks,the first cross road is County Road 126. The log house would be on your left before the cross road. Go thru the cross roads, the farm is on the left and just past that a new house, just past that a short distance is the spot(this is all on the same side of the road). If you look across from the spot you will see a fence row with trees. Try that, I don't think I can get a link. Might get a picture.
Boals was the very first person of interest in the Ashland area. He had lived in Bay to start with before moving to Ashland. He lived on county road 388 when Amy was found.
Gary Wears was the guy in Jameses book that I was told about on pg.191 at the bottom.
Long story but my friends and I live around the New London area, and like many of the other teenagers, trespassing on abandoned houses is the thing do. What we didn’t realize was the barn and old farm house we snuck into was the exact same place Amy was found. (We feel pretty bad now, after we looked it up) Is there any connections between those properties and her? One of my friends is scared to death. Thank you
If you were wondering the house is filled with furniture and large barrels of ripped fabric, and is collapsing from the inside out. 10/10 would not recommend Don’t think we will do this sort of stuff again : (
They claim the call never happened. I think they went full force with the case was because Margaret may have heard something in the background like shopping carts. It was something that shouldn’t have been where Amy was.
169 comments:
I'd like to state here first that I have turned in my summary of what this case looks like to me.In other words my opinion. I have not heard back anything and don't expect to, it doesn't work that way.I turned it in just a day or two before the 20 year anniversary.I do admit you will have to take some of it with a grain or two of salt as I did. Some things matched other things so perfect yet so far out there I could not or would not exclude them.
1. I have reason to believe that what ever Margaret told the police to start with caused the problem in the very begining.Was it?
A. Margaret was getting divorced?
B. Amy's father was a different man?
Amy recieved a phone call,was it from
A. A complete stranger?
B. A stranger driving a white van?
C. Someone in the family
D. Someone who befreinded the family?
Where was Amy taken from?
A. The shopping center?
B. She jumped in a car driving by?
C. Amy just strolled across the street on to Dover center Rd.
D. walking back to get her bike at the school?
2.
Was Amy taken to?
A. The house in Bay Village across from the police station
B. Kurts house garage apartment behind the mall.
C. The house Bill Hayes refers to in Westlake beside the bank.
D. The house on County Rd.500 in Ashland County.
E. A possible cabin that James refers to in Ashland County.
F. A cottage at Cinnamon Lake.
G. Stagecoach summer music festival campground Ashland County.
H. The killers personal home.
I. The old bank barn on the same road Al Matlocks family lived on.
3.
What was the reason Amy was taken?
A. WPP
B. cult
C. Drugs
D. Mafia
E. Sex crime
F. to replace a child
G. Porn movie
4.
What was the reason for the blackout in the autopsy?
A. Did they find out that Amy had been tied up
B. Was the killer a sexual deviant
C. Were some of her organs missing
5.
WHO done it?
A. Bond
B. Billy Strunak
C. Kurt
D. Sam Tillerman
E. Lamborgine
F. Ross
G. Runkle
H. Richard Alan Folbert
I. The Attorney?
J. Police officer?
K. Kapela-Dentist- soccer
L. Fireman
M. Shawn Tabellion-Dusky
N. Accountant
O. Al Matlock
P. The math teacher
Q. The Artist
R. Boals
S. School bus chaser
T. Gary Wears
U. The invisible boy friend FBI claim Margaret had
I may have forgotten a few, please let me know if I have.
Let's not rule out a female and that there is a chance that it was accidental.
When Maddie said Amy was led away, which direction was it? Towards Burns Garage? Kurt's parents' house? The house Bill Hayes was talking about?
Was Kurt's father ever questioned? Was he the police officer that might have been a suspect?
Interesting. I've never heard of some of the places and people on your post.
My take:
Amy knew who was calling her, he knew her well enough to gain her confidence. They agreed to meet that fateful day. Amy walked up to the black van, the person told her to go wait by the ice ceam shop, (because they can't be seen together) a friend of his will come and get her, they walk to a nearby house, the black van person will meet them there. BVPD said that Burns had to have been mistaken by recalling the gold colored car with Runkle (alleged) and Amy in it. BVPD must have some other idea as to why Burns was mistaken. Perhaps an eyewitness saw them walking together is why they are so adamant that Burns is wrong.
Amy calls her mother from the phone in the home, where she is, her captors coax her into it. Margaret comes home frantic. She goes to the BVPD, explains that someone she is close to is involved in the WPP. Everyone jumps into action. Amy is en route or in Ashland County.
My guess at this point is there are at least a minimum of 3-5 men involved in this. Someone wanted Amy specifically, perhaps because of her ease of access or to hurt someone in the family. Was she tied up or drugged during this? Probably. If at this point Amy is seen in the Ashland area, sitting outside by herself, she definitely knows her captor, why is she not running, what is keeping her with him, it's someone she knows very well from BV.
It's odd if it was a sex crime and she was not violated. I'd say she was violated in some way, they just aren't saying. If it was sex related, there had to have been a ring of pedophiles that regularly networked. It could have been via the internet/usenet.
At some point she struggled and fought back, they hit her on the head, now they have to get rid of her. If it was the house on CR 500, you're going to have a lot of commotion in a small amount of time, someone would have noticed. Perhaps they did.
Amy is found, with Al Matlock's coat nearby (how close was his coat to her body.) That coat is returned to him.
Now you have a major cover up. People die in some very disturbing ways, disappear, go into hiding, stay silent...
Now you have a family left with this devestation, and they remain silent... Yes, Margaret did her best, may she rest in peace. What about the rest of them? I find the lack of action incredibly odd.
Two quick questions
What is "WPP"?
There was something blacked out on the autopsy report?
Esora,
Witness Protection Program, as to your 2nd question, I can't answer that. I'll bet Liz can.
WPP= Witness Protection Program
duh. TY I should have known, but it didn't click.
If they were in WPP, wouldn't they have to give up their "old life"? But Margaret went to Vegas to be with her Mother. Even if after Amy's death they "broke cover", don't you think more of their "past" lives would have come out?
Curious said: Now you have a family left with this devestation, and they remain silent... Yes, Margaret did her best, may she rest in peace. What about the rest of them? I find the lack of action incredibly odd
I can see your point but I am not sure how I feel about this. I know it changed her brother. In high school he ended up doing a study abroad program for a while. I think it was hard being known as Amy's brother. Plus their last name is not common, it isn't something like Smith, so people knew who he was.
As for her father, I don't know, perhaps he has just put all his faith into the BVPD, and is trying to live a normal life while they "solve" the crime.
Esora,
Not that the Mihaljevic's were in the WPP, perhaps someone closely associated with them may have been, such as a person who was in the home, but not related by blood. Rumors have also said that Amy may have had a different father, who was in the WPP.
Keep in mind, something had happened or was said by Margaret to the BVPD when she went to them with the initial report of Amy gone missing, caused them to take immediate action (unusual), and the influx of FBI agents from the start.
I just thought of something, perhaps BVPD had a report, prior to Margaret coming in to the station to report Amy missing, that told of seeing a young girl in the company of a man and a struggle was taking place, or maybe seeing a young girl pulled into a vehicle. Hmmmmm....
I meant no disrespect for the Mihaljevic family, I certainly hope my comments weren't taken that way. Everyone is different. I stand by the statement of it being odd that no one from the family pushes for answers, in appearance anyway.
Curious,
Amy and her brother look too much alike, I can't see Amy having a different father.
hmm, do you think because the FBI agent that would take lead on the case, lived in Bay, and had children in school close to Amy's age, this could have gotten a more immediate reaction?
It is possible they did have a report of someone seeing a girl being taken, but they did not have an official ID on the girl, until Margaret went to the police to confirm her daughter was missing.
I don't believe the amount of FBI agents in the area had anything to do with them claiming jurisdiction. Something happened that made them believe she was kidnapped and taken across state lines.
The FBI was already in the area doing stings because of the girls getting the pervy phone calls right? What if they believed the kidnapping was connected to those calls?
Remember this is sleepy Bay Village. All under the illusion that nothing could happen here. I highly doubt anyone called with a report of a girl being taken or the shopping center area would have been swarmed at that point.
On the other hand they did seem to go into overdrive pretty quickly. But I thought it was around 530 to 630 when Margaret went to the police. I was not of the impression she went straight from work to the police. Did she stop home first? Did she call some of Amy's friends first? I think I vaguely remember she called home first to find out Amy was not really at home. But if she did go straight to the station, what time was that?
In any event, back to my point - a quiet town, a hysterical mother, someone under the age of 13 - and maybe Amy did say something more in that call to her mother that Margaret only revealed to police. Maybe it wasn't a calm call - maybe there was a code word or it was a frantic call and maybe Margaret was not allowed to reveal that. - Therefore immediate police action.
Now, I heard about this early Saturday morning when a neighbor saw the 11p.m. Friday news and came over to tell me. I immediately went to the police station to volunteer to pass out flyers and get the word out, etc. I got a picture that the police had, made copies and hit the road in the immediate area of the Middle School. I went back in the afternoon to offer services to get a search underway and to make it public for volunteers -to which I was told they did not want anyone out searching anywhere for 'insurance reasons'. Myself and friends struck out on our own. I went back in a couple of days to suggest a vigil to bring attention to the cause - to which I was told they did not want to create such an event. Then the Amy Center was organized and all things fell to them.
I guess my point is there could be a deeper reason for all the police action but it could also just have been because it is a small town and this young girl clearly didn't just walk away because it is Bay. So, the police reaction I get but the large FBI involvement - well that just doesn't normally happen. Could Amy have said 'I'm okay but I'm on my way to Indianna?? Pennsylvania??' thus the FBI?? And could she have been told what to say? We all assumed Margaret revealed to the public a normal kind of call - but maybe there was something more to that call.
Esora:
Yes something was and still is blacked out on the autopsy report. Ashland county and surounding areas were waiting to see what all was going to be released as to the findings. When the newspaper came out there was a blackout placed on it and we still don't know what it says.I'm sure James doesn't know either.
Anonymous:
I'm fairly certain what your stating is correct as I found several different things that could and would lead the everyday person on the street to believe that something more sinister was at hand.
I had gone into a smoke shop to buy a pack of ciggs. in Medina. A friend and I had gone there to pick up a copy of James book which just came out. After picking up the book we went across the street to have super at the Red Lobster. At the time smoking a cigg. after eating was the thing to do and still permitted.Problem was I was out. After getting into the smoke shop I had mentioned the book to the cashier. She was getting ready to close but took a breif moment to say "Mark wasn't Amy's father". I was flabbergasted to say the least. "How do you know that" I asked? "Because my best friend was going with a cop that worked at the BVPD at that time and he told me". I tried everything under the sun to get her to tell me more about what she was told. She refused stating that she probably shouldn't have said that because she didn't want to get anyone in trouble.
Can anyone here see how this could fit with other posts already? If so refer back to James book about what the deli owner said. I'm not saying he was correct on all counts ,just a few.
Anonymous,
There was a time lapse between Amy calling her mother (3:15pm) and Margaret leaving work (3:45.) If Amy was frantic, Margaret would have called the police from work or left immediately. Margaret left work shortly after the call, went home (4pm), went to the school, found Amy's bike, went to the BVPD, BVPD put out a call at 5:58pm of missing child.
I don't think any confrontation took place in the square, if that happened I think it could have happened with Amy walking back to get her bike, or the other way, Amy walking to a house nearby. It would have been quick. Perhaps a time lapse between what someone saw and a call to the police, by the time the police would have gone to investigate, it would have been done.
Just a thought, I had posted something on crime rant about an attempted kidnapping, from strangers, where they tried to pick up a little girl out of the blue. That was the post that caused all my other posts to disappear. So that's why I say perhaps someone saw a stuggle of some kind.
Here's my opinion: I don't think Amy was frantic or dropping secret codes when she called Margaret. I think mother's intuition kicked in to the point where Margaret couldn't ignore it any longer and she left work at 3:45, half an hour AFTER Amy called. If Amy had been frantic Margaret would have called police and left work immediately.
Since I went to school with both "Maddie" and Julius I've heard both of their accounts of Oct. 27th 1989 and they both said the same thing: They never saw the man leading Amy anywhere. As soon as they saw the man put his arm around her shoulder and whisper in her ear then they turned their attention away from Amy because they both assumed it was her Dad.
I wonder a lot about Rick Burns. Why did the police not believe him or follow up?
So both Ashland's coroner and Balraj (spelling) examined Amy's body. Why? Did the FBI/police not trust Ashland's coroner's findings.
The part that is blacked out on the autopsy, what part of the autopsy is it on? Cuyahoga County autopsy's tend to follow a certain form.
I thought the autopsy was done by Ashland County only.
I think it was Liz who said Balraj's name. And she was Cuyahoga County.
Which football game did Kurt say he attended? Was it the Bay high school game?
A fuzzy memory about the shopping center...
Today there is a spot where you can drive from the main entrance through to the back of Heinens. The spot is between Avelone's (or whatever it is now) and the strip at the west of the center. I am positive that back when I was a kid, you could not drive through that area. There was a gap, but it wasn't wide enough for cars or there were poles up. I don't know, I just remember you could walk through there, but not drive. So, if you drove back behind Heinens, where the delivery trucks unloaded, you were dead-ended and had to turn around. Sometimes people parked back there and walked through the opening to get to the shopping center.
What if Amy's killer parked behind Heinens? Once they walked through that pathway next to Avelones, no one would have seen them get into a vehicle. And who's house is right across the street from Heinens??? Yep, the Van Gutens.
Does anyone else remember that area of the center and not being able to drive through there? I don't know when it changed, and I don't know what the set-up was in '89. Also, I can't remember if you could drive through to the Shell station from behind Heinens.
It was stated that Van Gunten attended the Bay-Fairview football game that night.
Also according to the Scene Magazine article - Amy was instructed to meet the caller in the parking lot next to Baskin-Robbins. - Next to Baskins would be Burn's Auto.
Also sounds like Amy called around 330. How far could they have gone from the time school let out - with witnesses seeing her in the shopping center to get her to a phone? Not far.
Lake Tahoe vs Bay Village
Lastnight I watched the Jaycee Dugard story again.I noticed simalarities in both cases.
1. small quite village.
2. people lived there to get away from the hustle and bustle of bigger towns.
3. safe place for their kids.
list goes on...
here's what caught my attention, They said they WANTED EVERYONE to help in finding Jaycee, they couldn't do enough things to BRING ATTENTION To HER CASE. So tell me again about this Bay Village wanting to put a lid on Amys case.This was back 18 years ago. Something isn't right about Amy's case being kept under wraps.
Liz,
We think alike...
20 years, no solutions, tight lipped.
The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Big egos.
A string of evidence is lost.
Men dead, after the fact, in very odd ways.
People that should have been interviewed immediately, were not.
A little girl just vanished into thin air, while a PO stood not more than 25 feet away, and across from the police station.
A small town with a high concentration of perverts.
A two county connection, that no one can find an answer to.
Evidence at a murder scene retutned to the owner, without question.
Personally, I think it's time to get this case in the hands of someone else!
Between Shell and the plaza is a driveway that takes you behind the plaza to the back of Heinens and to the ATM drive-thru (directly behind the old Shell station they torn down). Once you get behind Heinens you can drive down behind the plaza to come out directly across from Mr Harvey's house. Or you can go around behind Heinens and come out more into their parking lot.
The police seem to think Amy called from the children's pay phone at Avelone's (they had two heights of pay phones). Did the police just assume this, or is there a witness that saw her there?
What is the source that says the police found Al Matlock's coat by her body?
I had never heard that until I read it here on this blog.
I think I saw this question before, but I didn't see an answer. Do Al Matlock and Kurt know each other? Is there a connection between Matlock and Kurt's father? How could Matlock not be questioned or charged if his jacket was found at the scene? I am certain anyone else would be!! Was Sandy ever questioned because of what she told Matlock about Amy?
Esora,
My mom worked with "Maddie's" grandma and the day after Amy went missing my mom came home from work and told me this story. Her grandmother said "Maddie" told her that she saw a man approach Amy in front of Baskin Robbins then a few minutes later she saw Amy on the phone inside Avellone's and the same man was standing next to her with his hand on her shoulder.
Thanks Laura. I thought someone had said it but did not know who.
If it is true the man and Amy walked from Baskin Robins to Avelonies, then that was pretty bold. Not that, that shopping center is huge, but that was a long walk past a lot of people and stores. If Avelonies was the last place she was seen, then it is possible the man had his car behind Avelonies, and not over by Burn's garage.
Well it looks like Kurt may be their man in Bay.
They are still looking for the man in the Ruggles area.
This may be why they now are looking at Al Matlock.
This could be the reason Amy's dad is not asking the public to help find the killer.
They have already told him who done it, but can't prove it.
So they're waiting for DNA to catch up.
End of story.
To all:
I just wanted everyone to know that I accidently deleted a post from Paula. I emailed her and asked that she repost.( that damn cat)!
Curious:
I have recently contacted a cold case unit from Colorado to see if they would be willing to step in and check this case out. I have yet to hear back.
Esora:
I have talked directly to the men that found the jacket. The jacket was not right up next to Amy's body, it was in the ditchline in the area.I was told by a credable source that they called Al Matlock in and questioned him, then gave his jacket back.
Laura:
I'm really just wondering why the authorities never verifyed what Maddie said.
Judi:
I have no idea if Kurt and Al know each other or if they are related.
The authorities don't know who Sandy is. Bill Hayes called BVPD and talked with them, I don't know what the out come of that was.
Esora:
Good point. I'm just wondering if at that time did Avellones have a store camera that when checked did not show Amy and the man on that day? That's the only thing that I can see that would bring doubt to what Maddie said.
Paula:
you could very well be right.
(Sorry again for the delete, thanks for reposting).
To all:
I have to question also the death certificate. Were there two? The one that I posted and the one that was done by Cuyahoga coroner Elizabeth Balraj.Who's telling the truth? Is Ashlands death certificate just a puliminary one? What did James see?
To All:
Was it that E. Balraj and the FBI just done the autopsy? Than Ashland done the Death certificate? Either way there are parts of it that are blacked out and we may never see.
Liz,
That's great about the cold case unit in Colorado! I've also looked into to contacting someone in Ohio. She's a former police officer, turned author. Check her out here:
http://www.stacydittrich.com/
I know she's no longer in law enforcement but I'm hoping she might have some insight on the this case because when she was a detective she specialized in kidnappings and sex crimes.
I'm really not sure what to think of the Avellone's phone call story.
I agree with Esora, that's very bold of him to walk past all those stores and people to the phone at Avellone's. I also heard a story that she was seen on the phone's at Heinen's that day.
Thanks to the lack of police updates in this case, who knows what to believe???
Laura:
I know who your talking about, her husband is LE in Ashland. Don't know how that's going to work out. I believe James has already talked with her also on one of her radio shows.
As for Avelonies having cameras, I highly doubt they did, and if they did I think it would be more aimed inside the store. I believe the pay phones were more in the vestibule of the store. Also, I can not believe that a pay phone in 1989 would not have a record of calls made from it.
I still think there is something to Balraj being involved. The Ashland corner had to of done an autopsy because James has been fighting with him to get a copy. If your office did not do it, then why fight? Why not just say, autopsy was conducted by Cuyahoga County corner??
The family has the right to request their own autopsy right? Could they of not liked the out come of the one done by Ashland, or perhaps the FBI did not trust it.
Did Sandy live in the house? Is there a way we can trace her name through records?
I believe Ashland did the autopsy. While it is a matter of public record, it is an active investigation that all parts may not be viewable, that's probably why whatever is blacked out. My guess is James saw some pictures, but not all.
Esora,
Liz already did a records search on the house and their names have disappeared from the records.
To all,
Thanks for looking into someone to take a look at this case, but I don't know how that will work, FBI has jurisdiction, BVPD have jurisdiction, I highly doubt they will let someone else in, unless they are pressured to. This may have to go to a news agency in order to put pressure on them.
One more question, is it true that Amy's Dr.'s office was broken into and the only thing taken was Amy's file?
Hello,
I've been following this case through Jim's site, Crime rant, and now here.
On the Cuyahoga county auditor's website, I was able to find the property transfers of the house on Bassett. That is, if I have the right house- 4th one down from the corner of Crocker and old Bassett, right next to First Merit bank. Were these incorrect? The transfers go back to 1975.
I just didn't know if this would be at all helpful.
curious:
Refer back to James book pg. 145-146, this is where the salt comes in.I myself don't doubt it a bit.
Anonymous:
Welcome,
756 is the address.There is alot incorrect with the paperwork on that house.
Anonymous:
It states the name of a person that owns it now. It also shows the name of the person who owned it before.The problem comes in where it doesn't show who owned it in between, or that it was a sheriff's deed.And of course the name is different too.
OK this is confusing,
JW inherits property in 78,
JW sell property to JS(former trustee) in 85,
*Somehow the sheriff owns the house at this point* and sells back to JS in 89.
JS gives property for $10 to WW in 90.
Curious,
One possibility for the property - if JS owned the property in 85, he/she may have used it as a rental property. If drug activity had occured there, the property could have been seized. Assuming it was a rental, he could have gotten it back - otherwise who the heck knows what went on there.
Yes, that is the address I was looking at. So, I take it the auditor's website doesn't match the documents at the office?
I saw on the website that JW & LW got the property in '78. In '79, it was transferred just to JW (divorce?). Then JW transferred to JS in July '89 (Sheriff's deed). Then JS transferred to WW & MW in Jan '90 and they are the current owners.
I figured this was probably too simple but just wanted to put it out there just in case.
If the house was a rental and illegal activities were conducted there, the court would have to prove the owner was involved in the illegal activities in order to confiscate the property. Since the owner was an attorney, he more than likely would have been disbarred, that did not happen.
What did Al Matlock do for a living?
Anonymous:
A source tells,the only thing they know of Al doing in that time frame is driving around and selling drugs.
You are missing an owner of the house in 1989. I am pulling the record right now. This "owner" does not show in the transfer history on the auditor's page. Will tell you my findings in a few minutes.
In this area, rental houses generally have to be registered with the city. Has anyone tried to contact Westlake to see if this house was one at the time?
Ok pulled the record. The name of the "owner" was actually the name of the sheriff. On the deed it shows a bank taking actions against JW, and then JS did a civil case against JW. So it looks the like house was involved with the sheriff because of a foreclosure/mortgage issue, and not taken do to illegal activity.
The sheriff took the house on May 18, 1989, and then put it up for auction on July 3, 1989.
Curious is correct, it looks like JW did give the house to JS in 1985. On the second page of the deed is a payment stipulation that JW is to pay JS and RG $32K. So I wonder if, JW never paid, and that sent the case to the court/sheriff and ultimately the house being sold at the sheriff sale and JS gaining the full control over it.
I also find it interesting that JW is giving the house to JS and RG, but he is the one that has to pay, you would think it was the other way around in the deed.
After looking over things again, I think JS might have been JW's lawyer. And that although it is listed a mortgage deed, it sounds more like a deed of trust, where a 3rd party holds the deed (could be a lawyer) until the debt it paid.
To All:
No where on my paper does it show 1985.It starts J.W. 1978.The first name is Jeff S. not John S.7-25-1989 Then it goes to W.W. 1-22-90.
Does any of this sound right?
Thanks everyone for trying to figure this out.
I am looking at the 1985 deed right now. It is a mortgage deed. This one, has JW giving the house to John S. and a Robert G.
opps posted this first time in wrong spot. Liz I just e-mailed you a PDF of the 1985 deed.
Esora:
Thank you.
Okay - but what does all of this figuring out of the house ownership mean to Amy's case?
Esora:
It could show who lived there just before Amy went missing. The conversation that Bill Hayes overheard Al talking to Sandy about sounds like Sandy also knew who Amy was. It could be the people in that house know the man that picked up Amy, it could also be the place Amy called her mother from,it wouldn't show being long distance.
In a few days I'm going to post another page that will be very interesting in content and will show how some of these things being said could match up.
Did Attorney John Shepherd have a son named Jeffery?
I just heard back from the author and former police officer, Stacey Dittrich, that I contacted about Amy's case. Talk about fate!
She told me that she's currently writing a book about unsolved child murders and abductions and was just starting to write Amy's chapter when my email popped up. Then, she left to give a speech and was approached by Janet Seabold (the woman who found Amy's body) who asked her in she knew of the Amy Mihaljevic case. She said she started to tell Janet about James Renner's book when Janet told her that his book was full of incorrect details.
And to continue the irony Stacey Dittrich's husband was the deputy sheriff who took the 911 call from Janet Seabold when she discovered Amy's body.
She's going to call me so we can discuss Amy's case and see if she wants to pursue this any further.
Even if nothing come of this, it's good to know that someone else is writing a book about Amy. It will keep her name in the media...
Liz, I see no Jeffery Shepherd in the transfer list. The owner before John Shepherd, had the first name of Jeffery.
Laura,
(Never read James' book). What does Janet think is wrong in James' book?
Liz,
Can you explain who Billy Hayes is please?
Laura:
That's exciting news, keep us updated on what's happening with that.
As far as James having incorrect information in his book can you speculate on one part? You have to remember the book was written from his perspective.James called the book Amy, my search for her killer.So it probably won't match everything other people think happened.
Liz,
Where did these people Sandy and Dave live? I am reading the Crime Rant comments (never had seen this before, I just googled Billy and Amy and it popped up). I can't tell. Someone is implying they were in the New London area, not Westlake.
Esora:
I looked that the papers you emailed me and they don't match what mine have on them.So it looks like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
Back when all this stuff happened Bill Hayes was a freind of Al Matlocks,That all changed when Al ratted on Bill and Bill went to prison. From that point on Bill has always said he thought Al killed Amy.Bill was the one that overheard the conversation between Al and Sandy in the Westlake house. Bill was also the one in the front yard of that house when Al pointed over to the back of the Mihaljevic home and said that's where that little... lived they killed.Bill has been trying to get the BVPD and Ashland County to listen to him for years, and nobody does. Bill is the one that knows the jacket was given back to Al. Lastly Bill is the person that saw James ad in the newspaper wanting information on the case for his book.
Laura:
There is a few places in the book that are incorrect, chapter 12 is a good example of this.
TY for the info on Billy.
Is it Al's brother that is in jail for killing his girlfriend, or is that just a friend of Al's? (I gave up on the Crime Rant thread too much nasty going on).
So do you think "JS" is the "lawyer" James lists as one of the suspects?
Esora:
Dave and Sandy are from Westlake.
Bill (not Billy) Hayes is from the Nova area.
Al Matlock is from the Sullivan area.
Sullivan and Nova are only 5 miles apart.
Paula is from the Ruggles area and that is 5 miles from Nova and 10 miles from Sullivan, and 4 miles from New London in the other direction.
Jan Seabold who found Amy was a block over(1281) from where she was found.
Amy was found on 1181 which is in between Ruggles and Nova.
We don't who all Al knew in Westlake but he did live in Sullivan with his grandparents.
Esora:
Doyle Wayne Matlock is Alvin Dewayne Matlocks cousin, Doyle is the one that killed his girlfriend.
As for "JS" I'm kinda leaning that way.I'm not sure if James is thinking about this person or not I've told him.
It looks to me like the police officer would be the cop in the shopping center. James book page 219. If it is the cop from the book then everyone in Bay should know who was on duty that day in the shopping center.
Could, JS of been Al's lawyer?
Esora:
I don't believe Al ever used a lawyer for anything in his life it appears. Al wasn't the kind of person that went by the rules he broke them. He is sort of like the hit and run driver.
I don't know what kind of lawyer JS is. I mean, did he use JS if he got arrested.
Esora:
I don't know, it does look that way.
Why was Bill at the house in Westlake?
Liz said:
Back when all this stuff happened Bill Hayes was a freind of Al Matlocks,That all changed when Al ratted on Bill and Bill went to prison. From that point on Bill has always said he thought Al killed Amy.
The way this is written also sounds like Bill could have been angry enough to blame Al for anything to get even. Anyone consider that?
I honestly have no idea about the "incorrect details" that Janet Seabold could have been referring to. If I had to guess I would say she was probably referring the part in the book about herself??? What else could she know for certain was incorrect?
I thought Jan did not want to talk to anyone about finding Amy?
So I just got out the Amy book. What's incorrect in chapter 12, Liz?
Fill me in.
The other thing I forgot to mention that Stacey Dittrich told me was that when Janet Seabold approached her and began talking about Amy she started to cry and said that she has been haunted by Amy's death ever since she discovered the body. That made me feel so sad and sorry for her.
Laura:
My mistake,I ment to say chapter 30. Joann Stillion did not live near Bay Village she was from Elyria and lived in Ruggles.No one knows how Margaret knew Joann for sure. Pat Stokes met Margaret while Pat was selling raffle tickets from the school.Margaret was at Joanns house when Pat stopped to make a sale. Joann and her husband were close friends of the people in the log house. Bill Hayes said Al Matlock was related to the people in the log house. Paula never knew the people in the log house or Matlocks. Paula's husband knew Bill Hayes.
Anyone would have been devastated at finding a dead body, especially a child.When your minding your own business then see such a sight, well what can I say.....
Janet Seabold wasn't the only cryer when it came to the thoughts about Amy. Bill Hayes was another person that couldn't contain himself when thinking that he might know the person that took that childs life.Bill Hayes has his own children and the killing of Amy doesn't set well with him at all.
Anonymous:
Janet Seabold left Ruggles to get away from everything that happened. I have no idea why she came forward recently.It takes time to heal from shock.....
Anonymous:
Bill Hayes is not the get even type of person.Bill is the kind of guy that will not use foul language in front of a female,he thinks before he speaks, and he always says thank you.
Esora:
Bill was at the house in Westlake with Al Matlock, he went there with Al to get drugs. Al was friends with Dave and Sandy who lived in the house at that time.
Laura:
The other incorrect thing I found was where James said Al and Dave were in the kitchen and Bill overheard them talking about that little girl. When it was Bill overheard Al and Sandy talking in the kitchen, Dave wasn't home yet.
Dave drove a newer semi truck with the letters D&S on the side which stood for Dave and Sandy.
The Story of Amy
THE GAME
(Us Against Them)
In late October of 1989 these men needed a child.One of the men knew of Amy. A plan was made and carried out.
The plan was to take her right under everyones nose.
IT WAS THE POINT OF THE GAME.
Step by step they played the game.
First to make that call to Amy and to set it up, then to make Amy take part in the THE GAME. He told her of her mothers job promotion...
So he was in touch with the mother at some time, or knew about her work.
THE GAME grew more intense as it played out.
There was an arrangement made to pick up the child (Amy), right in front of the police cheif.
So why not across the street from the police station? Which just happened to be the Bay Shopping Center.
It was also the day Amy's school had an officer there to speak to the children about Safty. "HA.HA".He said.
AS THE GAME GOES ON.
The man makes a phone call to Amy's mother and puts Amy on the phone to speak with her mom. THE GAME is so intense by now. They could hardly get her to the place where the END would BEGIN.
There they killed her(Amy).Redressed the body and kept a souvenir. Took her to a freezer and there she was kept until it was time for THE GAME to continue.
A phone call was made to a television station that Amy's body could be found in a location so odd know one would believe it, not even the police.
It would be the Sullivan area in Ashland, County, where the crime rate is kept low.
So Amy's body was made ready for the trip. There may have been a change of plans at the last minute, for some remote reason. But still in the Ruggles-Troy-Sullivan area.
SO BE IT
February 8TH,1990 around 7:30 in the morning, a jogger finds the body.
The call is made to the sheriff's station in Ashland, where THE GAME goes on.
The officer does not believe he is going to find a body on twp. rd. 1181. But when he gets there the reality sets in.
There she is,
Amy Mihaljevic.
Right where they said she would be found.
Now who's the players?
This story was written because there was too much information and not enough Evidence.
7/9/02
Written based on information found in local libraries and very helpfull concerned people.
.A phone call was made to a television station that Amy's body could be found in a location so odd know one would believe it, not even the police.
A call was really made to a TV station?
Esora:
Yes a call was made to a TV station.
According to the article:
FBI and a television station recieved a tip about a month ago from an anonymous caller who discribed the rural area where Amy was and demanded $20,000 to provide additional information.
The article did appear in the newspaper on 2/13/90. There was some people who speculated as to the reporters intent, claiming they thought it was made up. However there could have been no way the reporter could have known before hand where the body was.
hmmm this puts a new spin on things. Why would they call the FBI/TV? Were they proud of their work? Or wanted to make sure when they did dump her body, it would be found?
There seems to be taunting of the law in this crime. Meeting across from the police station, and then to call the tip in of the body location.
Esora:
I'm thinking that it's one of the guy's in their little group that made the call. I figure it's because they needed money for drugs. If that's the case then I believe Al Matlock would be the most likley canidate. Remember what he said in the yard "they" killed her,which left him out of the picture as the killer. Al was the one that needed drugs,that's why he took Bill Hayes to that house to start with. We know too that Al didn't work anywhere so he had to get money for his habit someplace. Remember too that he lived close in the area where Amy was found. That's why I'm thinking it must have been Al. I could be wrong.
It definitely appears that her body was stored somewhere for a long time, or the call would have been made earlier. It would be more feasible to do that in a rural area than Bay Village. It sounds like the killer is from the New London area, but had a partner from an area close to Bay.
What I can't figure out is why LE hasn't picked up the most obvious suspect. He might have left his calling card. Who would be protecting him?
Esora:
Are you keeping track of how many people we have that could be involved so far?
1. The guy that Amy knew,that befriended Amy.
2. The guy that picked her up, the stranger.
3. Al Matlock that was probably the one that dumped her.
Moving on...
Judi:
I believe it's LE that is protecting him. Why, because they know that "one of their own" as they put it, are into the same kind of things and just may have been involved too.
Judi:
I believe your right about the killer being from the Ruggles area and not from Bay. Yes he had to have had a partner. I believe he had a connection from Bay. An unknowing connection. I believe that person to be Ruth.
Liz,
Did you talk with James yet regarding Ruth?
Curious:
I have talked with him some about her. Ruth is not happy with him from putting her picture on the blogg. There really isn't to much to say about her that I know of. I don't know what kind of trouble Ruth got into from James posting her picture, but what ever it was really made her mad. With that said, I'd say she opened her mouth when she wasn't supposed to! So then what does Ruth know?
Curious:
Someone from the Bay area should know who Ruth is,what was she doing in regards to Margaret,Where did she worked ,if she worked , where did she come from and why.Whats the deal with her, did she have family there also.If so who are they. Why would she tell James that she has a new family now?
Liz,
There is definitely something there... Someone posted here that they were close to Amy, surely they would have some information. Was the babysitter graduation party video that James posted, for Ruth?
What do you know of Roger Martin in Ashland County, convicted pedophile, (court records), any relation to the deputy??
Curoius:
I need more detail before I can comment.
Is LE the police/sheriff from the area Amy was found?
If they needed money, why not try and ransom Amy? Even if she was already dead, they could have tried, instead of admitting she was dead and asking for money for her body's location.
Curious:
I don't know that Ruth was the babysitter. So far the only thing said about Ruth is that she was a friend of Margaret's that for some reason hung around the kids and cut Amy's hair and showed her how to cook.That would be a question for James.Who was the babysitter?
Liz,
I think the person that befriended her (phone calls and etc) and the person that she met at the shopping square are the same person. I just watched a video on YouTube, and her father Mark, said if Amy didn't know you, she would not of talked to you.
But I am starting to agree there are more people involved. Perhaps the person that was in charge of holding on to her once, the person took her.
Esora:
That would be sheriff.
I don't know why they wouldn't ask for ransom unless they thought they would be implicated in the murder. They seemed to know about it some how.That's why I think it was Al, he didn't do it but he knew of it and could make a profit from it. He probably wanted enough money to get out of Dodge! Al would have gone to prison if they cought him for the rape of the other girls.He needed a way out and that costs money.
Esora:
You could be right.
Here's my take on that.
I believe that the person she befriended made the initial call then put the stranger on the phone for Amy to talk to. After a few calls from them he would not have been a stranger to Amy, they just wouldn't have met in person until they got together the day she went missing.
So assuming Al is the one that dumped her body. I think it is strange that even though he did not get his 20K out of it, he still dumped the body basically where the "caller" said.
Esora:
I'm thinking Al was the caller in that instance.
So basically are we thinking..
"The stranger" - wanted a girl/Amy for something. Got someone, possible someone that it would be hard to connect back to him, to "befriend" her and ultimately take her. And then we have the "remover" the person who after "the stranger" was done with that he wanted had the task of dumping her body, but tried to profit from the crime.
Esora:
Here's another reason it could have been Al that made the call. When the other guy's in that group found out that Al had tried to narc them out in Amy's murder they could have snuffed him out. So he left the area never to return again. Looks like Al to me.
Esora:
Yep, that's pretty much it.
That's why it is so important to find out about Ruth.
I am still am puzzled. Why dump the body where the caller claimed? Is this where the "stranger" demanded and he had to stick to the plan? In theory, why not just bury her somewhere, instead of dumping her body somewhere, where it would be found, and in an area a caller had claimed?
Esora:
It was so close to the log cabin where Al's relatives lived that he could stand outside and watch them poke around that field for clues.
It was also in the area where claims were made that cult activity was going on and they could use it as a cover for who done it. As if to say the cult done it not them.
So then, do you think it was part of the "game" that she HAD to be found, so they could sit back and laugh and watch the police try to solve a crime, the perpetrators thought they never would?
Esora:
A former FBI agent that worked the case told Renner that some law enforcement believe there also may have been two men involved in this crime. Reffer back to James site 2/17/10... Kurt VanGunten is Mr. Harvey.
In general if there is more than one person involved there is a game plan. Maybe that's where Paula came up with the "GAME", She noted more than one person.
Esora:
Yes, I believe the perpetrators thought the LE would never figure out who done it.
I don't think game, means a game plan. I think its game, as in playing with the law enforcement, taunting them.
I guess, if the body was found near where Al was, this game him the perfect way to insert himself into the investigation to see what the police knew.
Esora:
It's my opinion that's why Al was at the log cabin house of his uncle that day. I believe Amy was put there just the night before. Up until that time I believe she was kept in a freezer.
Liz, I have a hard time believing that Amy's body was there for a period of time without being seen. The jogger saw her right off the bat. She wasn't far away from the road, right? But then I remember that it was said in the autopsy report that there was evidence she was there a long time. What do you think of that report? I'm a little perplexed when they talked about the seedlings, since it was late fall when she was taken and dead of winter when she was found.
Anonymous:
I believe that Amy was only there overnight,possibly a day and a half at the most. Several different people have stated they were in that field hunting and saw no body. As for the seedling, It could have been winter wheat. No mystery there.
Okay, thanks, I didn't put it together about the winter wheat and I just had to google its growing cycle. But the autopsy did state it was growing through the clothes, as if her body was there a long time and apparently winter wheat sprouts before freezing occurs, then becomes dormant.
Anonymous:
As to the report, I don't agree with the findings,as to the body, she couldn't have been more than 20' from the road. There is a deep ditch then a fairly high bank then the field.It wasn't the kind of place where you could just jump out of a car and walked right over to where the body was.
Anonymous:
In comparison, today the wheat would be approx. 2" tall. When Amy was found it was the first part of Feb. This is the last of Feb. so not a whole lot of difference in the size.
Well, like I said, I have a hard time believing her body not being seen all that time. I saw one of Renner's YouTube videos that had aerial shots and her body didn't seem far from the road. But these "findings" from the autopsy report, seedlings in the clothes and her teeth when she was found seem to contradict that. If I'm not mistaken, I think the BVPD thinks her body was there for a period of time based on those findings. But again, it's hard to believe she wasn't seen, I know it's rural but people do live and drive on those roads.
Anonymous:
The only thing that comes to mind about not being seen for the short period of time that I believe she was there ,is the Snow.It wasn't a lot but enough to cover the body untill the sun hit it.
Was there a lot of snowfall prior to finding her body? That might be hard to recall but I'm wondering if that was brought up as an official explanation. Based on the findings, I would imagine her body had to have been there prior to January. Did anyone report seeing something in the field prior to the jogger? From what I understand, there was something that they thought had been covering her, but it looked like it had blown off. I don't know what the area looks like but I would imagine a truck going by would have a better vantage point than a jogger would. How obvious is the place where she was found when driving by?
So, do you think the findings were falsified? Not only the autopsy report but the crime scene where she was found?
It's strange that Al's uncle didn't see anything in that field. How close is his cabin to the site? The same field?
There's just many incongruities in my mind.
Anonymous:
It was a warm winter, there were days when some snow fell and others when they had to use a snow plow to clear the roads. Which I might add at this point is what I feel got Amy on top of that knoll (snow plow hit her knocking her into the air and landing in the feild where her teeth were embeded in the ground, there was no other reason I could find for that).
No one saw her there before that morning.The day before several men(I spoke to) and their dogs were in the field and not one dog found her body. In that area there are wild animals,wild dogs and such looking for food, to the best of my knowledge the body wasn't touched by them.
As for being seen from the road driving , the bus drove that rd every day, if you were in a car you would of had to look up to see the body, a bus driver or truck would only have to look over to see it.
The log house, I don't think you could have seen the exact spot where the body was unless you were in an upstairs widow,I don't recall they had an upstairs.Either way county rd. 1181 ran up a grade from where the log house was.It would have been difficult to see I believe.That would be coming in from 224. Coming in from the other direction you couldn't see anything from where Amy was except the top of the old farmhouse.
I don't think the autopsy was falsified, they just can't figure out what happened to Amy to start with because of the way her body looked I think.It's a toss up, was it cult related, because that is what was in the area,or a vendetta against the father which by the way claims were made Mark wasn't her father.Was it drug related? Or was it just plain old hiligains that used the things that went on in that area for a cover knowing authorities would never figure that out? I can't see Amy as a drug user, so that's out.Even if Mark wasn't Amy's real father he took care of her like his own and his job couldn't have pissed off that many people,vendetta, hog wash. Cult just as an after thought so the real killers wouldn't get caught!
The only thing about that crime scene that was screwed up was when the Ashland County Coroners investigative wife blew her nose on a kleenex and then dropped it on the ground! And of course they all walked over the immediate area. Ya know they closed that rd. twice. Why do ya think they done that?
Curoius:
As to your question about Roger Martin, I don't believe he is related.
I thought his name did sound like I'd heard it before and questioned why. He is not the sheriff nor has he ever been. He likes to make porn movies and take pictures of that nature. You can find his info. on the Ashland County Court site with the rest of the peds!
The reason I asked about the Martin's. On Crime Rant, someone posted the comment "the Martin boys did it." they lived in the log cabin.
Who lived in the log cabin at the time of Amy going missing and being found? Who was visiting there at that time as well? What was Margaret's connection to the home?
Curious:
The people that lived in the log house at that time was named McCain, Not sure of the spelling. As far as I know.
As for the people who went there,I can't really say because I don't know. I know the people were not friendly and that Al and Doyle Matlock were both related to them. There are a few tales of these people ,like the guy use to keep a photo album on the coffee table with pictures in it of dead people from a war.I had also heard of one guy that was there who was a bad ass ex-con. I know that the man of the house was getting a divorce and set the house on fire to keep his ex-wife from getting it. He had parked his car to close to the house and it was damaged also. He also fought with firemen to keep it burning.I believe her name was Dixie. He was very mean to her. I don't know where she is today.
As to Margaret,the only thing I can do is repeat what was said by Pat Stokes, who was at Joann Stillions house. reffer back to an earlier post.
Regarding the seedlings. Perhaps Amy's body was not kept in a freezer, but an old barn. Since it was winter it would have been cold enough to slow down decomp. Perhaps in this barn is where she picked up the seedlings.
But I agree with Liz, I don't think she was in the field for very long. I think she was placed there within 48 hours of her body being found.
Since James seems to like to not post all comments, I am going to say it here. On his blog on 2/25/10 he posted about Dwight W. Baldwin. A man that took contest forms from Tower City and called women, including one in Bay Village and made sexual comments. I really think James is reaching, and for me it is taking away from the real search. Yes Baldwin is a perv, but he was called ADULT females. Now if he was calling 10 year old girls then it might me different. I just am deeply disappointed in the direction James' blog has taken.
-end of rant-
Esora,
I agree with you about the Baldwin guy. I don't think that Amy would have agreed to meet her caller if he was making sexual comments to her on the phone. I've always imagined that the guy who called her was "chatting her up" and trying to appear as friendly as possible. I think that if he made sexual comments towards her she probably would have been scared and hung up. It's also so important to remember that he claimed to know Margaret and to work with her. He must have said something that that made Amy believe that he did know Margaret, maybe something related to her job or something more personal. The best evidence I can offer of this is that Amy referred to him as a "friend" to Kristen Balas, Olivia and other classmates.
Laura,
There is something I have been meaning to ask you. We were in the Middle School at the same time. Did they announce over the PA that Amy had been found? I have a memory of being in the library sitting at one of the work tables, and them announcing it over the PA. Am I remembering this right? Because in an article I just read, it said Mrs Sabo told her daughter, Amy's body had been found. (Did Kristin not go to school?)
Liz,
Do you have an address for the log cabin?
Curious:
I do not, that place is at the intersection of 126 and 1181 across the road from the farm on the same side. Look it up on google earth and look just past the farm there is a new house that sets back just a bit,just past that is where the body was found.
Esora:
Let me explain about that freezer. It was at an old abandon house on county road 500, just a few miles from the site Amy was found. The freezer was not plugged in as there wasn't any power or power lines.
Well apparently no one lives on CR 1181 in Ashland County!
Esora,
I went to middle school at St. Raphael's. I knew Amy because we had horseback riding lessons together. Later, I went to Bay High with Jason. I think it said James' book that Kristy was home sick on the day that they found Amy's body so that's why her mom told her.
They made an announcement when we were in 5th grade. They only said it was unidentified, but we all knew better. Then later in the day, or the next day, they brought in a bunch of counselors.
Liz,
So there was a freezer in the "blood" house on CR 500? Did the FBI take it when they took ecerything else?? If not, who took it?
@ Anonymous,
I remember the next day. The cameras outside the school and all the grief counselors that were brought in.
Curious:
It does look that way.You have to remember it is all farmland. They did build 2 houses, one on each side of the road from co.rd 126 to 16 on 1181 the part Amy was found on.
It was a warm winter that year,with all the school buses,UPS trucks,snow plows, paper carriers and the daily traffic you would have thought someone would have seen her IF she was there the intire time.
Curious:
The people(I spoke with) in that area speculated that the freezer was left in the house because it was an old freezer and heavy and hard to move. The freezer may have been left in the basement.The house was burnt to the ground a short time after the FBI helicopter,(that had landed and went in and took evidence out by the bags full to include sections of the walls and flooring) left.It was said that the Savannah fire dept. was called to burn the house down.That house was empty since 1976. There were a few transient people living there for a short time.The locale kids made it a party house because it was empty and it set back in the woods about a quarter mile from any road.
Liz,
Can you post a link to the log cabin house along with the spot Amy was found? If that house is on CR 1181, there is no record of it, or I'm looking in the wrong direction.
Courious:
Go to google earth, find on there State Route 224 and State Route 60(where they come together).Now go east(towards Lodi) two roads down from 60 is 1181.It does not cross 224.So you would go left(if you were driving) go down, over the railroad tracks,the first cross road is County Road 126. The log house would be on your left before the cross road. Go thru the cross roads, the farm is on the left and just past that a new house, just past that a short distance is the spot(this is all on the same side of the road). If you look across from the spot you will see a fence row with trees.
Try that, I don't think I can get a link. Might get a picture.
Got it, thanks.
Curious:
Tid bit, Paula's store is at the intersection of 60 and 224. This is where the guy came in and drew her a map of Bay Shopping center.
What is the description of the man that drew that map?
Esora:
funny thing, he looked alot like Det. Spaetzel.
Interesting. Why did Amy come up in conversation with Paula, that the man drew the map?
BTW, what does Al Matlock look like?
Esora:
Paula has always had a copy of the first wanted poster in her store. The man say it and started talking.
James has a picture on his site of Al.
the man saw it
Thats right, I had seen Al's picture. It some how did not register who that was apparently.
Liz,
Who are Boals and Gary Wears?
Anonymous:
Boals was the very first person of interest in the Ashland area. He had lived in Bay to start with before moving to Ashland. He lived on county road 388 when Amy was found.
Gary Wears was the guy in Jameses book that I was told about on pg.191 at the bottom.
Long story but my friends and I live around the New London area, and like many of the other teenagers, trespassing on abandoned houses is the thing do. What we didn’t realize was the barn and old farm house we snuck into was the exact same place Amy was found. (We feel pretty bad now, after we looked it up) Is there any connections between those properties and her? One of my friends is scared to death. Thank you
If you were wondering the house is filled with furniture and large barrels of ripped fabric, and is collapsing from the inside out. 10/10 would not recommend
Don’t think we will do this sort of stuff again
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I'm guessing that because Amy's bicycle was still locked at the school, police took immediate action.
If the phone call placed to the TV station was from the Ashland County area, then there should of been a record, since it was long distance.
They claim the call never happened. I think they went full force with the case was because Margaret may have heard something in the background like shopping carts. It was something that shouldn’t have been where Amy was.
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