I don't know for sure, could be several reasons. Honestly my first thought was the FBI took them! Then my feet finaly touched the ground again and I came to my senses.I decided it was a "computer glich", Solar interfenece,or just some nut hacking into the system. Either way, glad you made it back!
Question, has anyone figured out who Ruth was in regards to Amy's family? What we know is, Ruth was a friend of Margaret's she played with the children she was teaching Amy to cook she cut Amy's hair, and she knew Amy had something bothering her the week she went missing!
What we don't know, where did she come from? why was she not mentioned until recently? why didn't Det.Spaetzel know about her? how often was she at the Mihaljevic home? did she live there? was she a part or full time babysitter? Somewhere a comment was made that "she didn't want to jeopardize the case". What did that mean? She didn't want to tell the authorities that Amy was bothered that week? Or did she know something she didn't want to disclose? If so, then who was it about and what was it?
Ok, my posts that diasappeared are: What's the story with Ruth? Who took Margaret's persoanal items after her death? What was found? Were they returned? Who were the pedophiles in BV at the time of Amy's abduction?
Regarding Ruth, If Det. Spaetzel didn't know of her, that's a major red-flag! The scenario's that run through my mind range from mild to wild. Mild: perhaps Ruth enjoyed the benefits of some tax-free cash, not unusual for that era. Wild: Ruth's association with the WPP or the Ashland County area and the group associated with that area.
The story regarding Mrs. Mihaljevic's sighting in that area (with Amy), was that ever verified? If so what is the story behind that?
I haven't heard of any connection between Ruth and Matlocks, maybe someone else here knows more about that and could comment.
I agree with your thoughts of mild, however I do tend to lean in the direction of WPP,what would be the reason for that?
I can't comment on the pedophiles in Bay at that time only because I don't know.
The claim was that someone went to Margaret's mother and asked for her address books as I recall. She assumed it was someone from the Bay police dept. and turned them over.I never heard any more. What does that tell you? So far no one has claimed responsibility for doing that so I hear.
The only story of Margaret being in the Ruggles area was told to me directly from the person that claims to have met her 2 yrs. before Amy went missing. Amy was not with her at the time. Margaret was with an old friend from Hinkly according to the person.That person signed a statement claiming it was true.That person was also questioned a few times by FBI.
When I asked Det. Spaetzel who the woman was in the picture on James site, he did sound a little upset that he hadn't seen the picture before it posted.I truley believe he didn't know a thing about Ruth.
As far as Al Matlock, the last I heard about him was a few months back,another person said they talked with a police psychic and the psychic told them to tell the FBI that Al Matlock was living on the beach in key West Florida. Whether they told FBI or not I haven't heard. I do know that this psychic did tell me things yrs. ago that seem to fit a few things in this case.So grain of salt or a whole box full he just may be there!
Here's a biggie, What would be the reason for the WPP?
Who know what the connection could be or where that connection leads to... Before I propose any thoughts on that subject, we need some accurate information on her. I thought Mr. Matlock was in jail?
Doyle Matlock is Al's cousin. Doyle murdered his ex-girlfriend a few yrs. ago, he stabbed her to death,even broke the knife blade off in her skull.He is in prison. Al and Doyle both were staying with an uncle in a log house on the corner of Co. Rd.126 and 1181 several yards from where Amys body was found. Al was the one that made the comment in the front yard of the house in Westlake directly behind the Mihaljevic home "that's where that little whore lived they killed" pointing in the direction of Amys house,so it's said.
Tid-Bit A Ashland County sheriffs duputy searching the area where the body was found in this rural setting also found a coat with the initials A.M. and a blanket.The coat was given back to Al, no reason known for doing that.Nothing more was ever said about the blanket.
Ok, let me get this straight... Margaret was seen in the area (where Amy was found) visiting, and knew a man named "Bud" who was some sort of relative of the Matlock clan, "Bud" lived/s in Amherst? The Matlock's are related to an Ashland County deputy? Al Matlock had connections in the BV area? Al Matlock made disparaging remarks about a 10 year old little girl? Al Matlock disappears? An article of clothing, evidence found at a murder scene, was returned to Al Matlock? By whom, and why? Do the FBI and or BV police read this? If so, why oh why is this till an open case? I am outraged!!! (reaching)Did Ruth have an association with Ashland County??
I think it's great you guys are keeping this thread going and I'm glad to have a place to post. It's very frustrating that BVPD has released so little information on Amy's case. For example, if Dean Runkle was really eliminated as a suspect, could they at least say why??? Or Mr. Harvey? Or anyone known to us Bay Villagers, I guess. I have to ask...Why are you guys so interested in Ruth? Are in thinking she's a suspect?
I'm of the opinion that in the case of any crime, you look at the closest people first then work your way out. Ruth was close enough to be in the Mihaljevic home near the time frame of the crime. Which makes Ruth some one to question, apparently that did not happen and so the mystery begins....
Liz, I know you've done a lot of research about Amy's case. Do you know what unique covering was found near her body? James mentioned that something unique was found, but wouldn't say what. I'm just wondering if you know what it was. If it was made public, would someone by chance be able to connect it to the abductor?
@ Judi I know what it was and it was definitely a unique item to Amy's killer. Let's just say that it wasn't something any of us could buy at a store. I'm not sure why the police have not gone public with it but I guess they have their reasons.
The post that caused my other post to disappear from CR was a story my children often spoke of when they were young, in the early 90's. White vans were referred to by many school age children as kidnapper vans, we were not far from BV. The children often spoke of the kidnapper vans as the one that took Amy. Just hought I'd share.
Your right about all of it except, I don't know if Bud lived/s in Amherst and they are not related (that I know of) to an Ashland County deputy.One of that group was however a VERY close "friend"(I'm not talking gay).
Al Matlock did disapper, but it was probably a year after the body was found.I was told the coat was returned by a deputy,no reason given.I'm sure this site is watched by BVPD as they were watching crime rant.
Laura
it looks like they want to keep all their apples in one basket until they are certain that non of these men connect to each other.
Ruth may have knowledge of what was going on in the Mihaljevic home with different family members.For instance she had to know that Margaret did have a drinking problem, so did she know or was she a person that went out with her to different places to drink? If so where, who did she talk with,dance with.Did Ruth know all of Amy's friends? Surely the two talked about the horses,school different things.What was her reason for being in that family? Was she just a sitter? Where did she come from? Was she checked out by the family before she became so close? Where did she go for all these years? The reason for not saying something sooner she said was "she didn't want to jepordize the case". What exactly was she talking about? The investigation could have gone a completely different way in the begining.Suspect--no, I don't think so, but if you look at James site you can compare the composite of the one person to Ruth and they look like they could be related!
As for the covering? Who knows, it's been said that a small town beginners band Banner which is made only by the members (it can't be purchased in a store) which they hang on a wall with their logo and such on it ( made from canvas,sheets,lg. pieces of material) could have been what covered her.Remember it was said a coat and a blanket were found in the area.
It seems to me that a "covering" or whatever it was used for could easily be traced to a particular person, especially if it couldn't be purchased at a store. That would certainly narrow down the number of people who could have one. It would probably contain DNA evidence also. What could possibly be the reason for not exposing it? I'm very curious!
Let's say for instance it was from a rock band. This group would have taken a bedsheet possibly, and painted it sold black then added their own logo and sayings in a different color.Investigators would know exactly who to look for because of the things written on it. Here's the problem, what if it were stolen from that group?What if no one in the group knew where it went.So you see it could have identifying marks on it but they would not have anything to do with what happened to Amy.Make no mistake I don't know for sure what it was.I heard other stories too.
Are you kidding me, Al Matlock's coat was found at the scene where and when Amy was found, and returned to him, but you're concerned with what was covering Amy? While the covering may be important, the real concern here is who returned Matlock's coat, who questioned him, why wan't Matlock arrested at the very least?
I knew that coat thing would strike a cord with you as it did with the few that knew about it.
Here's where the shit begins to get deep!
From the begining it was rumored that a cop was involved.After all these yrs. checking this case out I've come to the conclusion that the only area in which this seems to be true is with this coat! I followed this coat story to what looks like a possible connection to what happened to Amy.The entire thing sounds like something made for a TV movie on fright night! I will try to break it down so you can see what went on with the coat.
1. small group of drug using and selling men from Ashland County. 2. snached Amy again....claims were made she was with them before. 3. they drugged Amy for the purpose of sex.... 4. they all had a turn, maybe even made the so called movie.... 5. when they saw they had gone to far with this child (there were others)and she died.... 6.they called their friend and accomplices (in their group) to help them get rid of the body.... 7.they are instructed on what to do with the body so no evidence of them can be found.... 8.they have a plan ..where to keep her until a better time..where to dump the body..and who in the group needs their protection enough to do it all.... 9.who in the group would take them up on this offer of protection you say... 10.Looks to me like it would be non other than Al Matlock! .... 11.Same initials in the coat and by golly it's his coat to boot! 12.Why would Matlock need protection you say.... 13. he raped and torcherd many young girls, some he just left to die in the middle of roads,on sides of roads....threating each one should they tell he would kill them.
Now if you look at this story what do you have? 1. cop involved 2. sex 3. drugs 4. murder 5. higher-ups Whats possible 1. the house on co.rd. 500 2. the movie 3. some of the players 4. reason She died 5. reason she was in the field 6. who might have put her there 7. why the coat was given back 8. who gave it back 9. the possible reason Al left town? 10. Who knows....it's just another story.
It is really difficult to believe that Al Matlock was not arrested when his coat was found at the scene. It is unfathomable to imagine there could have been a cover-up. It would explain a lot, though. Was he one of the suspects who submitted a DNA sample?
They have never found Al. He left the area and hasn't been seen since.
I don't believe that Al had anything to do with Amys murder because of the comment he made to that other person in the front yard of that house in Westlake.Al said "they killed" when talking about Amy, however I do believe he knew about it. That may be the reason he hasn't come back. Think what would happen to him if he did.
OMG, there are times where truth is stranger than fiction!!! I can see where some of this fits, some not so much. How would they have taken Amy the first time? Is there any credence to "the tape"? Did Al Matlock leave a trail of victims alive?
I'm not to sure exactly,so far the only thing I've got is that Doyle Matlocks cousin lived in that log house on 126 at 1181 at the time Amy was found. Also Joann Stillion told Pat that she thought Buds boy in the log house killed Amy. The reason Joann said that was because her and her husband were good friends with the people in the log house.She had told Pat that Margaret was at her house and she had introduced her to Pat. Pat had thought Bud had brought Margaret to Joanns house.Doyle was related to the people in the log house and Al was also related.So if Margaret was out here a year or two prior to Amy going missing there's a good chance that Amy came into contact with them at that time.I don't know if Margaret drove here or came with someone else.
The tape, along with Donny Parsons talking about the tape, another man had heard about the tape but he did not know that Amy was the girl in the tape.
Al's victims
yes he did, the few that I've heard about refuse to talk.I had heard at one time that Al had killed that French girl over on rt.18. I don't know it to be fact myself .
Liz, Do you think more than person was involved in Amy's disappearance? The gang out in Ashland don't seem like they could have gained her trust on the phone the way her caller did. The caller seemed articulate, and the man at the plaza was well-dressed. Did Al Matlock know any of the other suspects in the case who could have phoned Amy and brought her to the others in the Ashland area?
Judi Yes I think that more then 1 person was involved in Amy's case.Who ever took her was a con man to start with. It was a game to him, in order for him to win that game he had to play the part of a nice guy, and he did.I have no way of knowing who Al knew.Then criminals all have a way of knowing each other.The man in the shopping center may or may not be the man that took Amy. No one saw Amy get in or go with anyone.The FBI stressed that point in the ten year report.
I have to say I disagree with you, Liz. I definitely think the man seen by the 2 witnesses in Bay Square is the person who took Amy. I just think he was clever enough not to let himself be seen getting into a vehicle with her. He could have parked at any of the businesses close to the square and just walked with her to his car. This person was confident, well mannered and non threatening and that's how he gained her trust. Whoever he was, he had to know Bay Village. He HAD to. There is no way he could have suggested meeting at Bay Square if he had never been to Bay Village before that awful day in 1989. You remember that the witness named "Maddie" that James refers to saw this man put his arm around Amy? Who would have done that unless it was her kidnapper? I might be wrong of course but I hope we find out for sure, one day.
That's fine however the person that "Maddie" saw could have very well been just someone Amy may have only asked for the time of day as it was getting late and the phone caller had not shown up yet.The FBI said don't pay any attention to the poster. If the FBI thought anything of that guy then they wouldn't have been in the Ruggles area this past summer looking for Al Matlock.
I do agree that Amy left the shopping center on foot.It's my feeling that she met up with the person on her way back to the school to get her bike.
Does anyone remember the gas station on the other side of the shopping center? Not the side where Mr. Burns has a station, if so what was the name of it? That station is no longer there, it's been gone awhile now.
Laura Years ago when I was looking around Bay Village I walked over to that station. When I got there it struck me that the station was more likely the spot where Amy met the person. I thought too that she might have made the call from there.Was that an open area phone or one in a booth?
Do you think that Amy could have made the call to her mother from there?
I'm trying to think out of the box here.If you take away all the junk that's been said over the years and just leave it an abduction and murder case and start at that point things seem to fit.
I think it's entirely possible that she made the phone call to her mother from there. I've always believed she called Margaret from somewhere close to Bay Square and before she got into a vehicle. I think her killer knew it would buy him time. There also used to be a payphone outside Burns Auto and there was one inside the Avellone's in Bay Square.
Keep in mind, Margaret assumed Amy had called from home. If you are on a pay phone, you'll have a lot of background noise, regardless of in a store or outside. If you're in a house it'll be quiet.
Yes, Curious, that's something I've always thought about too. Oct. 27th 1989 was a gorgeous day and every kid in Bay was outside around the area of Bay Square. The phone that was outside Burns Auto would have been the most quiet. No kids around. Remember Rick Burns says he saw Amy in a car, in his parking lot? That would definitely fit. Liz, I'm not familiar with Rainey Pkwy. at all. Sorry!
Can anyone tell me if Rainey Park was there back in 1989? Or if it was did it go thru to Bassett? Did it connect to another road or two from Dover Center Road? Could a person have driven from Dover Center Road to Bassett by driving thru the park?
Here's a thought, what if it were true that the person that picked Amy up was definitly known to her and that person just got off work at 3:00 (according to the ten year report the call came in at 3:40 enough time for a person to drive from a place of work and still have time to wait and watch for Amy )and drove to the Shell station and waited until Amy started back for her bike. He may have told her he had to stop at his house first and change out of his work clothes and the man that was going to take her shopping was going to met them at his house. What if he gave Amy something to drink that had a relaxer in it, and while he was changing she made the phone call to her mother. Let's say that when the unknown man got there they changed cars. By that time Amy would have most likley been asleep and they put her inside something to carry her out to the car so she couldn't be seen.She wouldn't have been seen going down the highway either.Does any of this sound plausible? I don't know if it happened that way or not, it's just a thought.
Perhaps she drank Lemonade, remember the "Reading" on Renner's blog! Wasn't Amy seen walking away with this man? Burns claimed he saw Amy in a car, and the driver asked directions to 480 (a ruse) and probably said to put Amy at ease, then drove off in that direction, then said he had to go back to his house because he forgot something, perhaps he could have doubled back and went to the house on the map presented by Paula. Did anyone ever discover who that man was? Then Amy called from that house right there in Bay Village. Then he could have given her something to drink laced with something. Did they do a toxicology report? Anyone know the outcome?
I don't know what kind of tests were done, or could be done.What ever they found they blackedout. I don't recall James saying that he saw any reports.What he did say basicly was the autopsy left more questions then answers.What little he did see was so traumatic he doesn't care to share with the public.
It could have been lemonade,could have been anything as long as she drank it.If that happened.
The map was given to BVPD. No questions were ever asked about it. No one ever found out who the man was that drew it.No one knows anything and no one has really talked about it.
I've always thought the call came from within Bay Village because I had heard the call wasn't long distance. If it had been then the FBI would have had a record of it.
Liz, Wasn't Paula the woman who owned the shop where the young man came in with the map? Why wouldn't they question her?
Also, Mark would have had to know Ruth if she spent that much time at their home. He was still living there. They hadn't separated yet. It's just strange that the public hadn't heard about her with all of the coverage the case got. They always look at family and close friends first.
Laura, did you know her? Forgive me if you have already addressed that.
I spoke with Paula, she wants to know the samething.Paula faxed Det. Spaetzel a copy of the map to the old police station a long time ago, with her name and fax number. She also faxed him a copy of the map of the house in Westlake. Bill Hayes had said he had been there with Al Matlock. It is behind the Mihaljevic home. Paula and Bill Hayes are still waiting for someone to talk with them. Paula states that as far as she knows the man could have been Mark Spaetzel working undercover as it was around the ten year point and that, that could be the reason they never questioned her.
If Ruth was only going to the home when Mark was at work then he would not have known her. When I spoke with Det. Spaetzel he did not know of Ruth. He also called James in and requested everything he had on her after finding he had posted Ruths picture on his site. Ruth also told James she did not step forward before because she did not want to put the case in jepardy. Ruth also became very upset with James because he posted her picture on his site.So what was it that she doesn't want to talk about?
How could Mark not have known about Ruth!!! There is no way he didn't know.
BTW, having a code for your children was very common at that time, I had one with my children, as was having a separate phone line for them. More importantly what time did the phone call from Euclid Mall come into the Mihaljevic's home, the day Amy went missing, which line was it on?
I did not know Ruth at all. My relationship with Amy totally revolved around our time together at Holly Hill. My opinion on drugging is that, if Amy was drugged, then the police would have revealed that to the public. This has always been my take on Amy's abduction and murder: I believe that Amy was a target of a sex crime and not an intended murder victim. I think her abductor did not intend or plan to kill her but did so after she fought back against his sexual advances. I also believe this was a first murder for Amy's killer and that he killed again after her but changed his M.O. to something other than the phone call setup because he is smart and knows how to avoid being caught. Mark said the phone call came from Midway Mall in the book. I'm thinking it was pretty much impossible for Amy to have called Margaret from Midway Mall before 3pm when the witnesses saw her in Bay Square at 2:45. Unless she called twice...that's a possibility.
The call that Amy made to her mom at work at the trading times was listed at 3:40 in the ten year report -- crime rant #577 that's the only call I know of. Margaret assumed Amy was calling from home.
Mark probably did know Ruth, the question is why didn't he say something to Det. Spaetzel about her? The thing is why wasn't she brought up before now?
Mark said the call came from Euclid Mall in Renner's book. Where does Midway Mall come from? I still feel that in order for Margaret to have felt Amy was calling from home, Amy had to have called from inside someone's home, not a drug store, gas station, or a mall.
Liz, How friendly are you with Renner? He seems to know a great deal about Ruth(he even gave her last name) and found her with relative ease. Ask him. So 19 years or so had passed and the BVPD had no idea of Ruth, you are kidding right?
The only statement released was from Lt. Wilson, he said Amy was stabbed in the neck and suffered a blow to the back of the head. Everything else was kept close to the vest. I hardly think they are going to mention drugs. That is only speculation at this point. Fox 8 reported there was a red spot on her underwear, it was blood, most likly Amy's. This can be found on James site May 9th 2007 Autopsy. Material that was collected at the scene may contain the killers DNA. The report that was done by fox 8 said no sperm was found referenced a 1989 report that used 1989 technology. Material was collected that may contian the killers sperm.
Again there is only one phone call I'm aware of and it was to Margaret at work at trading times.
Ruth contacted James, she wanted to talk, they set up an appointment to met.Ruth gave him the info. he put on his site and gave him a few pictures.
I've followed James from his first book signing at Bay Village library. My thoughts are, someone might say something I haven't heard before and I didn't want to miss it. I've talked with James different times. James was in the dark about Ruth too, until she called him almost 20 years later. At first James thought that Ruth was known until he put the picture on his site. He was only wanting to share more pictures of Amy.Until Det. Spaetzel called him and wanted the low down on Ruth ,James hadn't a clue.
Euclid Mall is what I meant, sorry. Unless Amy's kidnapper lived in Bay then it would be pretty hard for her to have called Margaret by 3:40 from his home. Remember the phone call still made Margaret uneasy and she left work? Maybe she heard background noise or something? According to the autopsy report her underwear was on inside out. And the police said, on the day the found her body, that this was a sex crime. Check out those old news reports on you tube.
Am I the only one that thinks Ruth's statement "Ruth also told James she did not step forward before because she did not want to put the case in jepardy." Makes absolutely no sense. No sense.
That is a strange statement Ruth made and I definitely don't understand what she's getting at.
One more thing about the mall phone call that's bothering me. Mark was told by police that someone called his home from a pay phone at Euclid Mall. Did the police think it was Amy calling while "shopping" with her kidnapper? If so, why didn't they release that info to the media so that anyone who was at Euclid mall might remember seeing Amy? There are so many things wrong with this investigation.
As you age, you gain wisdom and life experience, along with wisdome comes the ability to decipher all the BS that comes your way. Some things with this cases ring true more than others. In this case, there is a power struggle between: FBI, BVPD, Ashland County Officials. Until a fresh set of eyes looks at all the information on Amy's case, that power struggle will continue, and the resolution is in limbo. What a shame. So how do we as citizens get the powers that be to work together and get this case looked at by fresh eyes? That is the only way this case will ever be solved. Somewhere within this maze is the truth, and someone has overlooked the piece that connects it together.
Perhaps the FBI knew of Ruth... and told her not to talk to anyone else reagrding Amy, or it could be something else.
Why were FBI agents from Quantico brought in to do a grid search in the field Amy was found in?
What was so important about Amy that they used a helicopter from Quantico with FBI agents to enter the house on co. rd. 500 in ashland and remove sections of the walls and floors? This was not just another run of the mill abduction and murder, what made it different?
Very good question. The FBI gets involved in all child kidnap/murder cases now, not so sure that was the status quo in 1989, why would they have thought she was transported across state lines? What are your ideas?
I have a copy of her death certificate I'll try to post it some time today.
As for her Birth certificate, I spoke with the dept of vit. stats. in Ar. where Amy was born and they said " because it is an open case they are not allowed to make copies ".
Back in the time FBI was brought in on all child abductions. But why so many, that was a question that Sgt. Roger Martin brought up to Renner when he was writting his book. The reason that they may have thought Amy was taken across state lines was because of the car that was in Burns gas station next to the building. It was said to have had out of state plates on it. Another reason could have been because of the public being good samaritans and taking handfuls of flyers with them when they were traveling out of state for the holiday.
Liz said: Can anyone tell me if Rainey Park was there back in 1989? Or if it was did it go thru to Bassett? Did it connect to another road or two from Dover Center Road? Could a person have driven from Dover Center Road to Bassett by driving thru the park?
Rainey does not connected to Dover Center. Rainey connects Bassett to Cahoon Rd. Rainey connects to Westchester Parkway, and empties out in front of White Oaks restaurant. If someone wanted to get from Dover Center to Bassett without going through Bay, then the best way would be going south to Detroit, and then Detroit to Bassett.
When James was putting things together for his first book he had talked with Mark. James had asked the question: Did your phone records from the day Amy went missing show anything odd? His reply," if I remember right,somebody called our house from the Euclid Mall, from a pay phone". Pg. 122 in the first book.
Because I'm still having a problem with my pc it might be a good idea to just say what it says on the death certificate when someone asks,until I can get it on.
Amy called her mom at her work, The Trading Times newspaper, not at home. The police have never released any information about the phone records from the Trading Times so I'm guessing there was no way of tracing it.
There is a posibility that Mark wasn't remembering the right day as so many things were going on. Nothing was known about the Mall until the next day.
I can't see the person that took Amy letting her go into any place after he got her into a vehicle. He wouldn't want her to be seen. At that point she was his victim. He already had her, he didn't need another hour. He already chanced getting her in the vehicle,why do it again?
I say, she called from a private home when she called her mother,and she done that when the person wasn't in the room. I don't believe the person that took Amy would have knowingly let her make a call. That would have been stupid on his part.I believe the person gave Amy something to sedate her when he picked her up. Amy would have struggled shortly after discovering she was in trouble. I think that's why she wasn't the chitter chatter tpye girl her mother knew before the call.The blow to the head must have come after she was dead, say for intances when the snow plow hit her and thru her on top of that knoll where she was found.I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing that yet.
that is exactly my point about any number showing up on the phone record. The fact that it's stated that there was no record of local numbers 'back then' always struck me as odd. Maybe I watched too much tv in my childhood but phone records local and otherwise always seemed to be pulled.
And she could have very easily called from the Shell station in the back seat of a car. That phone was over by all the trees and the guard rail and could have been quiet as it is down from the din of the shopping center. Could have used a code word with her mother and then was driven out of town before her mom was even able to leave work.
It's too much to rethink this because clearly we don't have all the information to put pieces together or something is very wrong with the info out there - and if whoever did this is reading any of these blogs - they must be having a good laugh to read all the theories. It makes me sick to think that.
One more thing about the phone call...Margaret said Amy sounded nervous, like she wanted to get off the phone. Something in the sound of her voice led Margaret to believe that something was wrong. I think that Amy called her mother because the kidnapper told her too because he knew it would buy him some time. I also think he was standing right next to her when she called. This little detail is one of the reason I have always thought that the killer knew Margaret and the Mihaljevic family.
When Amy was first abducted, I thought I had read in the newspaper that when Margaret had questioned Amy about how the tryouts or practice went, Amy told her they were on a different day. I had always wondered if she was trying to secretly tip off her mother that something was wrong without alerting the killer. I believe that he was stadning right there, too.
I still just do not believe there is no records of phone calls to the house. Even if it was a local call. You would think the FBI could have found those out.
Did Amy have a bike? Was it found? Did she leave it at the middle school's bike rack? (I can't remember)
I really think the person who did this, is known to the family. How else did he get the information about her mother? Unless, someone told him, without knowing what they were saying. Such as another student. He had to of been around in Bay, stalking/watching to find out a pattern.
Also, I think she met him before at least once. I think she would have gone more willingly with someone she had at least seen once, instead of a stranger saying I will find you, or I am the guy in the blue shirt.
It angers me the BVPD really seems to be doing nothing. And I still can not believe it has been 20 years. It just seems like yesterday I was in the middle school and this was going on. I still have the white ribbon all the students were given to wear.
Anonymous said... I had always wondered if she was trying to secretly tip off her mother that something was wrong without alerting the killer. I believe that he was stadning right there, too.
If once meeting him, and she thought something was wrong, then how did he get her into the car? This was a public place, she could have screamed, but did not.
Amy had left her bike in the bike rack behind the Middle School that day. It was still there the next morning when word was just making its way through the town, as I recall.
Tuesday, February 16, 2010 Did Bay Village Chief Let Something Slip? I didn't even catch this.
Apparently, back in October, when asked about Amy's killer, BV Police Chief David Wright told Channel 3 News that he believes the suspect lives in the "West Shore" area.
"West Shore" is local slang for the Bay Village, Rocky River, Westlake area. "Living within 5 miles of Bay Village," he told the reporter.
You can see the Channel 3 vid here.
This leads me to believe that BVPD may have someone they like for this. One explanation for not spending more time on Runkle or other suspects is that they have another suspect they like better, though Det. Spaetzel has long denied this.
But why else would Wright say such a thing? That statement would seem to specifically rule out several suspects in their mind--Runkle, Kapela, Bound--who live outside that radius as well as suspects that are dead--Brahler, Strunak.
Three suspects come to mind that still live that close to Bay--Mr. Harvey, the Math Teacher, the Lawyer.
I have a big problem with this line of thinking, though. You have to assume the man who committed this crime was comfortable enough to return to Bay after the murder. I don't buy that. Not with two eye witnesses who could have bumped into him again on the street and identified him as the last person they saw with Amy.
Honestly, I don't know what to make of this. It's a damn weird thing to say. Posted by James Renner at 7:09 PM
I believe that to be true, Amy had told her mother it was a different day. It could have very well been Amy's way of trying to alert her mother that something was a miss. Yes he could have been standing there to make sure she didn't say anything.
We don't know how well she knew him if at all. We are speculating that she did.He could have shown her a fake badge or a gun, knife? What ever he did it was enough to put the fear of God in her.
Growing up in Bay, it was always rumored the person who did it was the man that lived in Fairview, that killed himself in the 1990's.
I don't think it is "Mr Harvey," from what I know about him, I don't think he did this. However, on James' blog he posted the police blurb about a man exposing himself to people in Lakewood. That seems more like him. Plus, yes he lived close to where Amy was taken, but that would have been too risky to be seen walking to the house with her.
I think Westshore, also takes in North Olmsted. Isn't that were the dentist lives, that James has talked about?
That would have been the guy that drank dry gas? If so I don't see where he fits into all the things that's been said. As far as I know, he was just a concerned citizen trying to help and it was another retired FBI agent that flew thru town who thought this guy done it.Not everyone agreed.
Mr.Harvey the handyman, didn't live in the house just down the street from the shopping center. His parents lived down the street. When they passed he was at the house cleaning it up. That was after Amy went missing just a few years ago.
Because Amy knew of the divorce, do you think it is possible that Margaret revealed to much personal info. to the Lawyer?
Ya know this could be where the FBI is saying that the abductor had personal family information.
That same attorney could have been involved with the Westlake house that was possibly seized in a drug raid. Upon checking ,the house was empty July 1989-January1990 It was sold with a sheriff's deed. The thing with the house was,it had just been purchased in January of 1989.And it is just behind the Mihaljevic home in Westlake. Just a thought.
I don't know how the guy killed himself. I am just saying this is what was said in Bay at the time. It was also rumored that after he died, his family went in and destroyed his belongings, which included the horse earrings missing from Amy. Again this is all rumor, that was going around town.
As for Mr. Harvey, he owns and lives in that house now.
What is the source of the divorce? I didn't think that came about until after Amy was killed.
As for a lawyer. Why would a lawyer target Amy? That seems kind of random. I also have never heard of a house being seized due to drugs. Is this why you were asking about Rainey Parkway?
In James's book, he mentioned that the Harveys' family home contained gold carpeting which was later deposited in the trash. He had alerted the police that the carpeting was outside, but I don't know whether or not they paid attention. I wish those fibers could have been analyzed and compared to those found on Amy. Of course, if Mr. Harvey was a well-known handyman, some people would have recognized him at the plaza if he took Amy. That makes me thin it wasn't him.
I am with Judi, Mr Harvey is too recognizable in town. I don't want to go into detail about Mr Harvey's house, as I don't think he did it, but the house is well lets just say near too many businesses, that I think someone would have seen Amy going to that house.
I just read a previous post. I had read that Billy S.'s family cleaned out his apartment after he passed away; but I have never heard that they found Amy's earrings in there, or that they were ever seen in his possession. Has that ever been substantiated as a fact?
I don't think any of it is a fact. I think it was just small town gossip. But these rumors have been going on for years. Every version I have heard basically says his family knew he was quilty and they cleaned out his place before the police could search. This has been "floating" around Bay for at least 15 years.
re: something I posted earlier. I see James wrote in a story, Amy had over heard her parents talking divorce. But I did not see anything about Margaret contacting a lawyer.
I totally with you that the Lakewood blurb about the guy exposing himself sounds like Mr. Harvey. Physical description fits too. I remember seeing him at a Bay High football game once and my friend said, "See that guy? (pointing at Mr. Harvey) He flashed my sister last week." I don't think that Mr. Harvey killed Amy because he is very recognizable but there's no denying he is a shady character. Mr. Harvey is definitely NOT the person Maddie and Julius saw talking to Amy. He is a very distinct looking guy and they would have had no trouble picking him out of a photo line up, if they were the given the chance. I've also heard scary stories about Mr. Harvey's father and his violent temper. Here's one last Mr. Harvey tidbit...I just found out (last month) that Mr. Harvey's father was a police sketch artiist for the Cleveland Police Dept. My first thought was, "Oh my god, he altered the composite sketch so it didn't look like his son!" But then I realized that he was not the person who did the composite of Amy's abductor, it was just a coincidence. Still strange though.
One of my friends, who was interviewed for Mr. Renner's book, swears that the person he saw in the Square on Oct. 27th 1989 was Billy Strunak. He also told me that he remembers seeing him in the square a lot BEFORE Amy was taken and he was always just sitting on a bench watching the kids. I firmly believe that Amy was "stalked" before she was taken. I think he watched her for awhile and maybe even listened in on some conversations. He might have even seen Margaret at some point in Bay Square. I'm not convinced that Billy Strunak did it but he has always been someone I wondered about. Especially the way he gave gifts. His body was cremated so, unfortunately, basic DNA testing is out.
I've always wondered about Billy, too, because I thought a witness commented on the man's reddish cast to his face. Billy had a skin condition. He also seemed to dwell on what Amy's last moments were like when he helped out at the command center. As far as DNA, didn't he supposedly father a child that was placed for adoption? I'm sure the DNA could be obtained that way.
If it was Billy, how did he aquire the information about the family and the unlisted unmber?
I don't think Amy ever saw a mall that day. She probably did call from a home or a public phone that could be accessed from the car. He probably didn't want to risk her creating a scene in public.
I think Mr Harvey has "issues" (alcohol and etc.) but from what I know about him, I don't think he sounds like he would be the type to plot this out the way the killer did.
I don't think James has found a copy of the local phone book from 1989 to know if Amy's phone number was not in it at all. We have a little phone book here in Bay, that lists the children's names and etc too. But also, Amy did pass out babysitting fliers, so who knows. Perhaps one of them ended up on the drug store bulletin board there in the shopping center.
As for DNA, I am sure the FBI could obtain a sample from a sibling of Billy's (I believe he had siblings).
I really have no thoughts on who killed her. Things Billy did during the search seems rather odd for just being a concerned citizen, plus he lived within 5 miles or so of Bay, as the BVPD captain said.
However, things about Runkle seem strange too. Too many similarities and etc.
It is very frustrating that it seems like the police are doing nothing! The only time we hear about it in the media is on the anniversary around Halloween. I really would like the BVPD and FBI to be more vocal so that we do at least feel something is being done.
Could be, however it could have also been another perp driving by, spotted Amy, took a chance, grabbed her and went on. Amy could have thought it was the man she was waiting for and just got in.
Kurt could have done it as he is a career criminal- he's had 38 charges against him thru the years.(Rocky River court papers). He did live at 491 Parkside.
Now look at it this way:
What if because it's been 20 years the police have made up their minds that it is Kurt, they have fingered him for everything under the sun, which caused him to collect all those charges making him a career criminal. What if the house across from the police dept. had nothing to do with it at all, and the police just tried to make everything fit Kurt because of all his antics. As with the map that was drawn in Paula's store. The drawer could have been an off duty cop from Bay.
Rumors,Rumors,Rumors!!! No where has it been said that Amy's earrings were found. It was later stated that the apartment was not cleaned before the investigators went in. Billy asked about Amy's last moments as I see it because he was thinking of taking his own life, which he did. Part of Runkles family thinks he's guilty too. So,there you are. What's going to happen 5 years down the road when technology catches up to the DNA and it's not Kurt or Billy. Then what the hell they gona do? What a f----- waste of time!!! Get a grip people think out of the box.. What is the real reason this happened to start with????
I think Kurt was very capable of racking up those charges by himself. So I don't think he was targeted by the police. From things I know about him, I don't think he did it.
Also, Kurt's alibi is too strong. I believe he and Casey were childhood friends.
As for Anonymous, I never said it was a FACT the earrings were found. I just said these are the RUMORS going around Bay. With what seems like no progress going on in the case, people will begin to talk, and try to find ways to explain why there have been no movements.
I guess the ultimate question is WHY. Why was she kidnapped? What was the goal?
I see a comment I made was not posted to James' site. Basically what I said was, to go from being a flasher to being a kidnapper is a giant leap. From flashing, I think the next progression would be a sexually related crime such as rape.
James has to ok the comments first, before he puts them on.
Can you check on his site to see if you can get that video that he just posted yesterday to come on? I've had other people email me (letshearit2010@hotmail.com)to say it doesn't work. I got it to work lastnight one time.
Anonymous: I don't think any person on this blog wants anyone falsely accused. We just want justice for Amy, and hope that conversation can generate the lead that is the missing piece of the puzzle. What do you think happened? Are you saying that you agree with part of Runkle's family? I am just trying to figure out your frame of reference.
Yes, I know the comments are ok'd before they are posted. Comments made after I did mine were posted. Other things I have said have not been posted either but that is ok. I don't mind.
As for the ch 3 video, I can get to the video player, but no video comes up.
I did get it to play. It stays blank until I type her name, in the upper right hand corner, then a car add comes on twice. Then the round arrow is where I click in the left corner.
Ok just got the video to work. I had to go to the video search on ch. 3 and put in Amy's name to find the story.
The news anchor said the chief believes the killer is still here within 5 miles of Bay Village. There is no video of the chief saying this, nor did I hear the phrase "West Shore".
The chief just says they have talked to over 20,000 people, and have a list of 16,000 suspects and they believe they have talked to him.
To Anonymous, I agree. Rumors have been said about a lot of people involved in this case. Part of me doesn't think James should have given Mr Harvey's real name yet.
Liz, Interesting. Maybe the clip online is the edited down version for a later broadcast. Unlike, when a story first airs it tends to be a little longer.
Either way, 20 years is too long to let this remain unsolved.
I know "Mr Harvey"'s real name was already out there on the internet from a previous article published by James. But it is interesting that a former BVPD Chief is telling people he believes he was involved in the crime. Seems rather strange, when the BVPD claim James is putting their investigations in "jeopardy" and then to turn around themselves and say this. They don't appear to listen to their own advice.
Let me just say, I have no proof that Mr Harvey is the flasher, just the the description seems to match him, and his reported behavior. However, I do think going from an alleged flasher to kidnapper is a LARGE step. I think a sexually oriented crime would be the next step. (I have no reason to believe Mr Harvey has committed such crime either).
The reason Kurt's alibi has been questioned is because Casey Coleman was known (very hush hush, of course) to be a big drinker. The police questioned whether he was remembering Oct. 27th 1989 accurately or if he was possibly confusing it with another football game. I don't think they wanted to make a big deal of it because Casey Coleman was a local celebrity. I'm not certain whether anyone else besides Casey Coleman could confirm they saw him at the game.
The yellow house on Dover Center was Kurt's parents house but his house (the one mentioned in the book) is on Parkside in Bay.
I grew up in Bay and remember the Bay Directory well. I think it's definitely possible that the killer found her name and number in there. However, it's also entirely possible he got her name and number in another way too.
The talk about the 'next step' makes it sound like there are logical progressions. Usually there are but often times they are not - things happen quickly - unexpectedly or take a surprising turn even for the perv. Let's not fall into any profiling - that works sometimes and often times it tends to screw the focus of possibilities up.
As for someone being at a football game - if Amy was in the plaza after school - 3ish - the high school football games don't start until 7:30. What do you think you can do in 4 hours if you wanted to or had to?
Do any of you know of a person in the Bay area that drives a blue buick and travels back and forth to Indiana to see family?
This was brought to my attention recently,just thought I'd ask. I'm not sure if they ment the person was driving it 20 yrs. ago or now. Their claim was that the guy that took Amy was driving a Blue Buick.
And another thing, I'm really pushing this Westlake house because of the story that Bill Hayes talked about. According to Bill while he and Al Matlock were at that house Al had gone into the kitchen with the woman that lived there named Sandy ( not sure of name). Bill stayed in the other room and overheard this convesation,"Al, you guys are going to get into trouble for doing that to that little girl" Al's reply,"nobody cared about that little.....anyways".
When I called BVPD I spoke with Elish and questioned him about that house. He said" we know all about that house" end of conversation. So What do they know?
Bill Hayes is in James first book. Bill use to hang around with Al Matlock. They use to party together, drink do drugs and such. Bill stopped all of that years ago. Al continued. According to Bill it had to be back when the people were still living in that house in Westlake. Bill and Al were going there to get GOOD drugs so he says.Bill also said Al and him were in the front yard of that house when Al pointed over to the back of the Mihaljevic home and said" that's where that little....lived they killed".According to neighbors when the house was vacant they found alot of junk in the basement that delt with drugs.Such as grow lights and things. The paper work on that house has totally changed from when the sale happened. As far as I can figure it had to be in the fall or early spring. The paper work states the house was sold in January of 1990. Bill had to be there before that. The guy that owned it only had it for a short time, to short for foreclosure.It looks like it sat empty from July of 1989 thru January 1990 on paper. The newer papers show the last owner never exsisted.The papers show the house went from the previous owner to the owner today skipping one owner, the one Bill knew.
Wait, wait... you mean Runkle's not the killer? I thought that was stated by Renner as fact. How does James get off on publishing all of these people's names? This isn't investigative journalism....it's irresponsible journalism.
Thank you Liz for starting this website...I just hope you don't do what James does and not allow messages to be published because you don't agree with them.
You can see the back of Amy's house, I have, I've even taken pictures of it. My pictures are from a few years back and you can definitly see the house from Westlake.Check it out on google live map.
Al Matlock is the guy that stayed with his relatives in the log cabin house just a few hundred feet from where Amy was found on county road 1181 in Ruggles.
I don't intend on taking off any messages that are posted here. I can't pick and choose who can voice an opinion. At this point the killer could be anyone. What we need here is input.I want everyone to see what is being said, it can't hurt the case as far as I can see. I met a man years ago who told me not to worry about anything in life because in 100 years no one will care anyways. He was right. So if I disagree with you or you disagree with me that's ok. go for it.Amy's case isn't going to be solved by people not talking about it.It's my feeling this is what should have been done years ago.
James is fairly new to all this,he's not seasoned enough yet,but he's getting there. Just like making your first meal or fixing your first flat tire you don't always get it right from the get-go. I'm just saying it takes time to get into the perfect grove,you have that in all walks of life.
James is no different from the rest of us wanting to solve this case. His zeel to put the killer behind bars sometimes gets alittle over whelming,he means well. James can tell you that I've told him I'm just as passionate about the man I think is involved as he is about Runkle, that doesn't make us bad, just eager!
Just one other thing, we do not need the spelling police here.don't repost your sorry, we all know what you are saying.This is not a school,there are no test.When we get done no one gets a grade. I goof up, misspell,forget letters just everything, because I get in a hurry just like many of you do I'm sure.With that said --- Moving On.
Interesting. I haven't been on Lindford in years. I think I was in High school the last time I was on the road. I didn't think you could see her house. I thought old Bassett Rd curved out behind the house (across the tracks in Westlake).
Ok so if Al was involved, then the big thing is motive. Why Amy? Why plan this out so much?
Hahaha...ok ok....I was the spelling police on Crimerant. I only did that because James did it on the Morning Journal site. I really wish that Renner wasn't someone that I always had to take with a grain of salt. I know he wants to solve a case and all but he has made money off of it.
Liz, your candor is certainly refreshing. I appreciate you not shutting down comments that are against your opinions. Let's solve this.
Would you like to share your scenario, from start to finish?
It's amazing how things related to this case just disappear, people included.
To anonymous,
Why poke at Renner, he wrote a book, that was his job. I certainly expect to be compensated for my work. I've written things that firmly state my disagreement with him and they were posted. There is a reason for moderation on his site. I really don't want this to turn into a Renner bashing thread. He has certainly made us all aware that there are some scummy people we call neighbors. Let's take the high road.
Everyone has ther own perspectives on this case. We all share a passion for getting the truth out.
It's a known fact that Amy was unsupervised a good deal of the time in the summer and early fall of 1989. That would give the abductor the ok,she's attainable.I'm assuming here that he had already talked with a few other men about what they could do with a girl Amy's age if they had one.The only thing they needed to do now was to befriend her. So one of them did.
It's my belief that the " plan" was made up by a few different people. I don't think Amy was killed in Bay, or the first day. These men needed her for something. I think her death was unplanned.I don't think it was an accident, I believe the course of things that took place with her came to the point that there was no alternative. One can only imagine that if Amy was hurt these men could not have taken her to any hospital,she was a kidnap victim,she knew them, they would go to jail.
The house in Westlake is the one right beside the bank,or the fourth one down from the curve. Note to that the driveway goes from street to street,Crocker to Bassett. Amy could have ridden her bike in the bank parkinglot and talked to the man at that house while he was outside at the same time maybe setting on his steps.
I'd love to share my scenario with everyone. What I don't want to happen is for what I say to change anyone elses opinion of what they think happened. I could be 100% wrong (I don't think so),they could be right and not say, we would still be in the same boat as we are now. I don't want to miss the opportunity of someone solving this.I will share parts that I have as we go along.I hope that's ok with everyone.I just don't want to go from the begining to the end to start with.
Does anyone find it odd that Bay has a man they think it is and so does Ashland? Do you think these two men know each other? Does anyone know if "Kurt" hung around in Westlake on Bassett? Do you think "Kurt"thought himself a chic magnet or did he truley like little girls 20 years ago?
Left the following on James' site today, but don't know if it will make it on there. Thought I'd post it here too in case one of you guys has the answer...
James, I was skimming through your book a couple weeks ago, and something in there did not sit well with me. It's probably nothing, but for some reason I can't get it out of my mind. Here goes...
P. 143 - You talk about a friend of Amy's named Patricia, who worked at the Sunkist Tanning Salon in the Shopping Plaza. The book states that on the afternoon of Oct 27, Patricia saw Amy through the salon window, and they waved to each other. "As Amy approached the plaza the next afternoon, they waved to each other through the wide window of the salon."
Note the "as Amy approached the plaza," which indicates that Patricia saw Amy before she got to the main plaza and Baskin Robbins. Here's my issue: if you were traveling east (which Amy would have been - Middle School to plaza) the salon was located past Baskin Robbins. It was on the outside of the shopping plaza between Baskin Robbins and Burn's garage. So if she did see Amy, Amy would have been walking away from BR towards Burn's garage.
It makes me wonder: 1. Was Amy walking near or with someone at the time? Did Patricia unknowingly see Amy with her abductor? 2. Was her abductor at Burn's garage calling Amy to "come here"? 3. Did Amy's abductor send her over to Burn's garage to use the phone to call her mother, and follow shortly thereafter? 4. Since the Sabos owned the salon, did Amy walk over there to see if Kristen or her mom was there? 5. Did Amy walk up that side of the strip and double back before finally settling at Baskin Robbins? 6. Did Patricia simply have her dates mixed up?
Has someone told you Amy would go to Westlake on her bike?
To Anonymous,
Good point about the tanning place. To approach the plaza, she would have to be coming from the east, heading west.
I did not know the Sabo's owned that. But this could give Amy even more of a reason to hang out in the shopping center, and a greater chance to be seen by someone.
I am not saying she did not go to the bank in Westlake, but just was curious. I can not remember when it changed, but Martin's deli on Bassett (in Bay) used to be a combo of Goomba Nick's Pizza and a small convenient store owned by a Lebanese man. If the men stayed at the house in Westlake, it is possible they just went straight down Bassett into Bay to this place, and saw Amy there.
Do you have a theory as to why they picked Amy? Did she see something she should not have?
The drawn map is still kind of a puzzle. It is hard to tell if when the person wrote "ice scream shop" if they meant it to be there in the north west corner (which it wasn't), or is just saying there was an ice cream shop in the shopping center.
Interesting post on James' blog today that Mr Harvey could have been a sub in North Olmsted. Has it ever been stated what the phone calls to the girls in North Olmsted were about? I got the impression they were more sexual/sleezy in nature, and not like the content of Amy's call of wanting to buy a parent a gift.
Just thinking out loud here. What if it is just a coincidence, there was some perv calling girls and following them in a white van. (In Bay we were taught to fear white vans, but I don't recall a white van ever really being described as part of Amy's abduction.) And that once Amy was kidnapped the perv got scared, perhaps thinking he would be accused of taking Amy, so he stopped (or dramatically changed it behavior).
I have always been convinced that Amy was stalked and killed by someone who watched her either at Holly Hill or somewhere in Bay Village. It seemed like the FBI were very interested in the Holly Hill connection because when they questioned me they asked a ton of questions about the farm but very little else. Maybe they were focusing on HB then or maybe they had another reason? I agree with Liz that her death was unplanned. I think what started as a sex crime escalated to a homicide because she resisted his sexual advances. I'm wondering if there is any way we can get Amy's case investigated by someone other than BVPD. Can we petition the state to have it investigated by a "cold case unit" that has experience in this kind of crime? Any ideas?
First we have to know if the information James recieved is accurate or not.I didn't catch the part about the woman being in the tanning salon.Normaly the woman would see Amy on her bike true or false? If Amy wasn't on that bike seems to me that would have stuck in her mind to remember.So it very well may be that she did see Amy that day.
The story that the man told Paula in her store may have some truth in it as the house was across the street from the police station. Maybe someone motioned to Amy to come to him. No one seen her get into any car, could be she just went to him. I don't know.I'm unclear as to what was seen from the tanning salon.I'll put that on my list of need to know things.
It was years ago when I was in that tanning salon, but from the front window I am pretty sure if you were seated at a desk you really could have only seen the police station (directly across) and to the east the northern part of the Dover Center/Wolf intersection. To the west of the police station is a grassy area with Bay Way cabin set back too far to see from the window. (I know you meant you would look into the book and not what was the actual view, just saying).
I guess it is possible that Amy did pace up and down in front of the shopping center waiting, and the person at the salon missed her going towards Dover Center, and just saw her walking back towards Baskin Robins.
I think your right about the caller to the other girls possibly being someone different. I really don't think they are the same people. I myself am not including them in this case at this point. I may have to think about putting them back in at someother time,just right now.
I don't think that any white van had a thing to do with what happened to Amy. I believe it was total confusion.The way it looks, the FBI only came down here looking at Runkle because,of trying to connect the girls in north olmsted to Amy because they all receieved phone calls and they all had been to the science center. And somewhere along the line the sign in book vanished. Runkle probably still remains on there list but it looks like they haven't persued it any further. The last I know of them they were in the Ruggles area looking for Al Matlock.So untill James comes up with somebody else that's probably where it's going to be setting.
At this point I don't think it is a "big thing" the North Olmsted girls were at the nature center too, because basically every school aged person went on a field trip there in this area.
I also don't see why it is so important to get it officially confirmed Runkle volunteered there. Several of his former students confirmed it. Even if the nature center confirms it, does not mean he killed her.
The white van thing started around the time Amy was kidnapped and I think it just crossed over. The white van part I believe came from a girl I went to school with who also received the phone calls, and she said parked outside her house was the white van, and that she saw it around Bay.
Because Amy was at Holly Hill often especially the last week in October is more then likely the reason they asked all the question, in other words it was like Amy's second home.
They discounted HB shortly after.I don't know if he is still on either list.
I'm checking into finding out about what needs to be done for cold cases right now.
The only other idea I have is for everyone to ask there friends and neighbors about anything they might remember and get it on here. We just may get that last little thread that finally ties it all together.
I believe they really didn't know what to do with her. I'm thinking that it wasn't supposed to go that far. We can only speculate as to what their reasoning was.
I've been to the shopping center many times and will retun again when weather permits and check out that area of the salon.
Amy could have been pacing, she was looking for that man to pick her up.
If that lady Sandy warned Al Matlock that he and someone else were going to get into trouble for "doing that to that little girl", it certainly appears that he was involved somehow in her abduction. He didn't deny that he'd done anything to Amy when Sandy said that.
Okay - considering all things are possible consider some things may be over thought.
It is possible that any number of creeps mentioned or not mentioned had their eye on Amy.
It is also possible that she was receiving calls of a sexual nature or even just a boyfriend like tone from someone she did not know or that had no knowledge of her family. Random happens. Then she agreed to meet him but was too embarrased to tell even her closest friend, (there are things I don't tell my closest friend) so she herself made up that she was going with someone to buy a gift for her mom.
But if it wasn't random and someone that had some knowledge of her life - maybe she went for another reason? Was there something this person knew that no one else did? Did Amy think she was in on something other than a surprise for her mom? Did she think she was helping someone, somewhere?
I say this because - I am in my 50's and I can remember being around 9 or 10 and someone calling my house and questioning me like a survey about panty hose and bra size. I was smart and mature but it still took me a beat to catch on and I wasn't interested and I never told anyone. So these kinds of calls are definitely not new. And kids - even the best and the smartest still do unpredictable things even though people that know them swear they never would.
So the question remains why was Amy intrigued enough to go? concerned enough to go? confused enough to go? I think something more was going on around her at that time that may hold more clues. Were her teachers, school counselors interviewed and how deeply? Did she or her family go to church? Was she involved in any other sports or lessons or extracurriculars?
Those are good points. We really do not know what was said on the phone. Just because she told her friend she was going to buy a gift for her mother, doesn't mean that is what the man on the phone told her.
Also, someone in the comments section on James' site said Amy was telling people she had a "boyfriend Kurt". It should be noted, there was a boy in the school named Kurt (he has passed away).
If you share your version of events, I don't really think it's going to change people's perceptions, it may open new doors, or fill in gaps. Have you gone to any LEA with your version of events? If so, did they do anything? Have they told you to keep quiet, obstruction of justice perhaps?
IMO, by not coming forward with information the torment continues, and we all keep chasing our tails. That is EXACTLY why this case has not been solved!
Is it just me or does someone else think that story of buying the gift for Amys mom sound a bit hookey?Is that really what she told her friend?Could she have said something different?
I personally know 2 people (besides Kristen Balas) that Amy told she was "going shopping with a friend" after school on Friday. She also said they were going to Parmatown Mall. I definitely think he used the shopping ruse on Amy. More proof that he knew Margaret, I think. I'm guessing that he knew Margaret was upset due to her divorce and that Amy would have loved to cheer her up. Amy cared very much about her Mom's happiness as most little girl's do. One of the conversations I had with Amy at Holly Hill just prior to her death was about her mother and how she was mad at her. Amy was crying as we talked and brushed one of the horses. I told Amy about my mom being mad at me for trying to wear Lee Press-On Nails to school and that made her laugh. I've always though that if someone (I never saw anyone) was listening in on that conversation they would have learned a great deal about how to lure Amy into a trap.
Why was it that Ruth cut Amy's hair?Did Ruth work at the beauty and tanning salon? Why if Amy knew the Sabos so well didn't they cut her hair after all they said Amy's hair was dishuffled which made her look like a ragamuffin.
I'm not sure WHY Margaret was angry with Amy or if she even really was angry with her, it could have just been Amy's perception of the situation. Amy just told me, when I asked her why she was crying, that her mom was mad at her.
On page 6 of a Google search of Amy's name a headline comes up that I can not seem to access through Cleveland.com to read the entire article. Does anyone remember this/know about this? I was wondering why he was a suspect in the first place.
Rape suspect, James E Vachuska, 28, not ruled out in Amy Mihaljevic's abduction
then later James E Vachuska in Louisanna day Amy was abducted
I do remember James E. Vachuska in this. He's the man that killed a young boy at about the same time. The thing with him was when this happened to Amy he was in Louisianna. If I remember correctly. I'll look up my Newspaper article and post later about him.
Anonymous said... Not only 'who is Sandy' - where is she now?
Sandy and her husband Dave were the people that lived in the house in Westlake when Bill Hayes went there. Dave was a truck driver. I don't know where they are now.
I get Paramtown would be getting Amy away from Bay even more (I don't believe he intended to take her there.) But I mean why be so specific. Why not just say the mall, or lie and say Westgate. To tell her a mall that was not that close seems just odd to me.
Something else that I just thought of. So Amy's house got a call from Euclid Mall that day. What if the assumption there were more than one man is correct, and the partner who was not in Bay at the time, called Amy's house to see if she was there. Since she did not answer, that told them, their plan was being set into motion.
Does anyone really think Amy's kidnapper was being honest with her when he said we'll go to Parmatown Mall? Do you really think he would take the chance of her telling someone where they were going? - which she did. My guess is it doesn't matter at all what destination was said - there was never an intention to go but maybe if it was discovered she was missing to send authorities on a wild goose chase.
James E. Vochuka, he kidnapped the Jacob Wetterling boy from St. Joseph, Minnesota and looked alot like the composite that was first done in Amy's case. He was in Louisianna at the time Amy went missing as far as I can tell, so he was disregarded as a person of interest.
How do you know who kidnapped Jacob Wetterling? As far as the public knows, it's still an open but cold case. I'm just wondering how you got this info about Jacob. Is this a person they are sure who did it but don't have the evidence to prosecute?
Okay.... What I find very odd is this: Amy was abducted around 2:15-2:30 PM. Amys Mothers received the call from Amy at approximately 3:30pm. So at least an hour passed between her abduction and the call. Amy could not have called the plaza. What did the killer do, hang around there in broad daylight for a hour w Amy then after an hour let her call?? That doesn't make any sense. Amy may have called from the place where she had been killed.
And there is no reason to believe that Amy knew her abductor or that he was a friend if the family. The reason? Because there were several girls who received phone calls w that same pitch before Amy. Meaning? The police investigated this and found out there was no hang ups before the girls received the calls. In other words, the killer didn't keep trying to call and call trying to get the girls alone. He knew exactly when all of them were alone and called. He did his homework. He was stalking them and their families. The same w Amy. To say that any knew her killer then we would have to say the other girls also knew him too. What are the odds of that? The killer just happens to be the Gardner, barber, teacher, etc of all several girls and their families and after 30 yrs the police and fbi never once made this connection???
And there is no reason to believe that Amy knew her abductor or that he was a friend if the family. The reason? Because there were several girls who received phone calls w that same pitch before Amy. Meaning? The police investigated this and found out there was no hang ups before the girls received the calls. In other words, the killer didn't keep trying to call and call trying to get the girls alone. He knew exactly when all of them were alone and called. He did his homework. He was stalking them and their families. The same w Amy. To say that any knew her killer then we would have to say the other girls also knew him too. What are the odds of that? The killer just happens to be the Gardner, barber, teacher, etc of all several girls and their families and after 30 yrs the police and fbi never once made this connection???
Okay.... What I find very odd is this: Amy was abducted around 2:15-2:30 PM. Amys Mothers received the call from Amy at approximately 3:30pm. So at least an hour passed between her abduction and the call. Amy could not have called the plaza. What did the killer do, hang around there in broad daylight for a hour w Amy then after an hour let her call?? That doesn't make any sense. Amy may have called from the place where she had been killed.
197 comments:
Ok, well isn't life funny sometimes. I did contact Gregg, he had no ideas as to why my post disappeared. Any thoughts as to why??
I don't know for sure, could be several reasons. Honestly my first thought was the FBI took them! Then my feet finaly touched the ground again and I came to my senses.I decided it was a "computer glich", Solar interfenece,or just some nut hacking into the system. Either way, glad you made it back!
Question,
has anyone figured out who Ruth was in regards to Amy's family? What we know is,
Ruth was a friend of Margaret's
she played with the children
she was teaching Amy to cook
she cut Amy's hair,
and she knew Amy had something bothering her the week she went missing!
What we don't know,
where did she come from?
why was she not mentioned until recently?
why didn't Det.Spaetzel know about her?
how often was she at the Mihaljevic home?
did she live there?
was she a part or full time babysitter?
Somewhere a comment was made that "she didn't want to jeopardize the case".
What did that mean?
She didn't want to tell the authorities that Amy was bothered that week? Or did she know something she didn't want to disclose? If so, then who was it about and what was it?
Ok, my posts that diasappeared are:
What's the story with Ruth?
Who took Margaret's persoanal items after her death? What was found? Were they returned?
Who were the pedophiles in BV at the time of Amy's abduction?
Regarding Ruth, If Det. Spaetzel didn't know of her, that's a major red-flag! The scenario's that run through my mind range from mild to wild.
Mild: perhaps Ruth enjoyed the benefits of some tax-free cash, not unusual for that era.
Wild: Ruth's association with the WPP or the Ashland County area and the group associated with that area.
The story regarding Mrs. Mihaljevic's sighting in that area (with Amy), was that ever verified? If so what is the story behind that?
More specifically, any connection between Ruth and the Matlocks?
Curious:
I haven't heard of any connection between Ruth and Matlocks, maybe someone else here knows more about that and could comment.
I agree with your thoughts of mild, however I do tend to lean in the direction of WPP,what would be the reason for that?
I can't comment on the pedophiles in Bay at that time only because I don't know.
The claim was that someone went to Margaret's mother and asked for her address books as I recall. She assumed it was someone from the Bay police dept. and turned them over.I never heard any more. What does that tell you? So far no one has claimed responsibility for doing that so I hear.
The only story of Margaret being in the Ruggles area was told to me directly from the person that claims to have met her 2 yrs. before Amy went missing. Amy was not with her at the time. Margaret was with an old friend from Hinkly according to the person.That person signed a statement claiming it was true.That person was also questioned a few times by FBI.
When I asked Det. Spaetzel who the woman was in the picture on James site, he did sound a little upset that he hadn't seen the picture before it posted.I truley believe he didn't know a thing about Ruth.
As far as Al Matlock, the last I heard about him was a few months back,another person said they talked with a police psychic and the psychic told them to tell the FBI that Al Matlock was living on the beach in key West Florida. Whether they told FBI or not I haven't heard. I do know that this psychic did tell me things yrs. ago that seem to fit a few things in this case.So grain of salt or a whole box full he just may be there!
Here's a biggie, What would be the reason for the WPP?
Who know what the connection could be or where that connection leads to... Before I propose any thoughts on that subject, we need some accurate information on her. I thought Mr. Matlock was in jail?
Doyle Matlock is Al's cousin. Doyle murdered his ex-girlfriend a few yrs. ago, he stabbed her to death,even broke the knife blade off in her skull.He is in prison. Al and Doyle both were staying with an uncle in a log house on the corner of Co. Rd.126 and 1181 several yards from where Amys body was found. Al was the one that made the comment in the front yard of the house in Westlake directly behind the Mihaljevic home "that's where that little whore lived they killed" pointing in the direction of Amys house,so it's said.
Tid-Bit
A Ashland County sheriffs duputy searching the area where the body was found in this rural setting also found a coat with the initials A.M. and a blanket.The coat was given back to Al, no reason known for doing that.Nothing more was ever said about the blanket.
Ok, let me get this straight...
Margaret was seen in the area (where Amy was found) visiting, and knew a man named "Bud" who was some sort of relative of the Matlock clan, "Bud" lived/s in Amherst?
The Matlock's are related to an Ashland County deputy?
Al Matlock had connections in the BV area?
Al Matlock made disparaging remarks about a 10 year old little girl?
Al Matlock disappears?
An article of clothing, evidence found at a murder scene, was returned to Al Matlock? By whom, and why? Do the FBI and or BV police read this? If so, why oh why is this till an open case? I am outraged!!!
(reaching)Did Ruth have an association with Ashland County??
I think it's great you guys are keeping this thread going and I'm glad to have a place to post.
It's very frustrating that BVPD has released so little information on Amy's case. For example, if Dean Runkle was really eliminated as a suspect, could they at least say why??? Or Mr. Harvey? Or anyone known to us Bay Villagers, I guess.
I have to ask...Why are you guys so interested in Ruth? Are in thinking she's a suspect?
@ Laura,
I'm of the opinion that in the case of any crime, you look at the closest people first then work your way out. Ruth was close enough to be in the Mihaljevic home near the time frame of the crime. Which makes Ruth some one to question, apparently that did not happen and so the mystery begins....
Liz,
I know you've done a lot of research about Amy's case. Do you know what unique covering was found near her body? James mentioned that something unique was found, but wouldn't say what. I'm just wondering if you know what it was. If it was made public, would someone by chance be able to connect it to the abductor?
@ Judi
I know what it was and it was definitely a unique item to Amy's killer. Let's just say that it wasn't something any of us could buy at a store. I'm not sure why the police have not gone public with it but I guess they have their reasons.
The post that caused my other post to disappear from CR was a story my children often spoke of when they were young, in the early 90's. White vans were referred to by many school age children as kidnapper vans, we were not far from BV. The children often spoke of the kidnapper vans as the one that took Amy. Just hought I'd share.
Curious
Your right about all of it except, I don't know if Bud lived/s in Amherst and they are not related (that I know of) to an Ashland County deputy.One of that group was however a VERY close "friend"(I'm not talking gay).
Al Matlock did disapper, but it was probably a year after the body was found.I was told the coat was returned by a deputy,no reason given.I'm sure this site is watched by BVPD as they were watching crime rant.
Laura
it looks like they want to keep all their apples in one basket until they are certain that non of these men connect to each other.
Ruth may have knowledge of what was going on in the Mihaljevic home with different family members.For instance she had to know that Margaret did have a drinking problem, so did she know or was she a person that went out with her to different places to drink? If so where, who did she talk with,dance with.Did Ruth know all of Amy's friends? Surely the two talked about the horses,school different things.What was her reason for being in that family? Was she just a sitter? Where did she come from? Was she checked out by the family before she became so close? Where did she go for all these years? The reason for not saying something sooner she said was "she didn't want to jepordize the case". What exactly was she talking about? The investigation could have gone a completely different way in the begining.Suspect--no, I don't think so, but if you look at James site you can compare the composite of the one person to Ruth and they look like they could be related!
As for the covering? Who knows, it's been said that a small town beginners band Banner which is made only by the members (it can't be purchased in a store) which they hang on a wall with their logo and such on it ( made from canvas,sheets,lg. pieces of material) could have been what covered her.Remember it was said a coat and a blanket were found in the area.
It seems to me that a "covering" or whatever it was used for could easily be traced to a particular person, especially if it couldn't be purchased at a store. That would certainly narrow down the number of people who could have one. It would probably contain DNA evidence also. What could possibly be the reason for not exposing it? I'm very curious!
Judi
Let's say for instance it was from a rock band. This group would have taken a bedsheet possibly, and painted it sold black then added their own logo and sayings in a different color.Investigators would know exactly who to look for because of the things written on it. Here's the problem, what if it were stolen from that group?What if no one in the group knew where it went.So you see it could have identifying marks on it but they would not have anything to do with what happened to Amy.Make no mistake I don't know for sure what it was.I heard other stories too.
Ladies,
Are you kidding me, Al Matlock's coat was found at the scene where and when Amy was found, and returned to him, but you're concerned with what was covering Amy? While the covering may be important, the real concern here is who returned Matlock's coat, who questioned him, why wan't Matlock arrested at the very least?
OMG, excuse the typos!
Twenty years...
Curious
I knew that coat thing would strike a cord with you as it did with the few that knew about it.
Here's where the shit begins to get deep!
From the begining it was rumored that a cop was involved.After all these yrs. checking this case out I've come to the conclusion that the only area in which this seems to be true is with this coat! I followed this coat story to what looks like a possible connection to what happened to Amy.The entire thing sounds like something made for a TV movie on fright night! I will try to break it down so you can see what went on with the coat.
1. small group of drug using and selling men from Ashland County.
2. snached Amy again....claims were made she was with them before.
3. they drugged Amy for the purpose of sex....
4. they all had a turn, maybe even made the so called movie....
5. when they saw they had gone to far with this child (there were others)and she died....
6.they called their friend and accomplices (in their group) to help them get rid of the body....
7.they are instructed on what to do with the body so no evidence of them can be found....
8.they have a plan ..where to keep her until a better time..where to dump the body..and who in the group needs their protection enough to do it all....
9.who in the group would take them up on this offer of protection you say...
10.Looks to me like it would be non other than Al Matlock! ....
11.Same initials in the coat and by golly it's his coat to boot!
12.Why would Matlock need protection you say....
13. he raped and torcherd many young girls, some he just left to die in the middle of roads,on sides of roads....threating each one should they tell he would kill them.
Now if you look at this story what do you have?
1. cop involved
2. sex
3. drugs
4. murder
5. higher-ups
Whats possible
1. the house on co.rd. 500
2. the movie
3. some of the players
4. reason She died
5. reason she was in the field
6. who might have put her there
7. why the coat was given back
8. who gave it back
9. the possible reason Al left town?
10. Who knows....it's just another story.
It is really difficult to believe that Al Matlock was not arrested when his coat was found at the scene. It is unfathomable to imagine there could have been a cover-up. It would explain a lot, though. Was he one of the suspects who submitted a DNA sample?
Judi
They have never found Al.
He left the area and hasn't been seen since.
I don't believe that Al had anything to do with Amys murder because of the comment he made to that other person in the front yard of that house in Westlake.Al said "they killed" when talking about Amy, however I do believe he knew about it. That may be the reason he hasn't come back. Think what would happen to him if he did.
OMG, there are times where truth is stranger than fiction!!! I can see where some of this fits, some not so much. How would they have taken Amy the first time? Is there any credence to "the tape"? Did Al Matlock leave a trail of victims alive?
Curious
I'm not to sure exactly,so far the only thing I've got is that Doyle Matlocks cousin lived in that log house on 126 at 1181 at the time Amy was found. Also Joann Stillion told Pat that she thought Buds boy in the log house killed Amy. The reason Joann said that was because her and her husband were good friends with the people in the log house.She had told Pat that Margaret was at her house and she had introduced her to Pat. Pat had thought Bud had brought Margaret to Joanns house.Doyle was related to the people in the log house and Al was also related.So if Margaret was out here a year or two prior to Amy going missing there's a good chance that Amy came into contact with them at that time.I don't know if Margaret drove here or came with someone else.
The tape,
along with Donny Parsons talking about the tape, another man had heard about the tape but he did not know that Amy was the girl in the tape.
Al's victims
yes he did, the few that I've heard about refuse to talk.I had heard at one time that Al had killed that French girl over on rt.18. I don't know it to be fact myself .
which parts don't you see fitting?
Liz,
Do you think more than person was involved in Amy's disappearance? The gang out in Ashland don't seem like they could have gained her trust on the phone the way her caller did. The caller seemed articulate, and the man at the plaza was well-dressed. Did Al Matlock know any of the other suspects in the case who
could have phoned Amy and brought her to the others in the Ashland area?
Judi
Yes I think that more then 1 person was involved in Amy's case.Who ever took her was a con man to start with. It was a game to him, in order for him to win that game he had to play the part of a nice guy, and he did.I have no way of knowing who Al knew.Then criminals all have a way of knowing each other.The man in the shopping center may or may not be the man that took Amy. No one saw Amy get in or go with anyone.The FBI stressed that point in the ten year report.
I have to say I disagree with you, Liz. I definitely think the man seen by the 2 witnesses in Bay Square is the person who took Amy.
I just think he was clever enough not to let himself be seen getting into a vehicle with her. He could have parked at any of the businesses close to the square and just walked with her to his car. This person was confident, well mannered and non threatening and that's how he gained her trust. Whoever he was, he had to know Bay Village. He HAD to. There is no way he could have suggested meeting at Bay Square if he had never been to Bay Village before that awful day in 1989. You remember that the witness named "Maddie" that James refers to saw this man put his arm around Amy? Who would have done that unless it was her kidnapper?
I might be wrong of course but I hope we find out for sure, one day.
Laura
That's fine however the person that "Maddie" saw could have very well been just someone Amy may have only asked for the time of day as it was getting late and the phone caller had not shown up yet.The FBI said don't pay any attention to the poster. If the FBI thought anything of that guy then they wouldn't have been in the Ruggles area this past summer looking for Al Matlock.
Laura
I do agree that Amy left the shopping center on foot.It's my feeling that she met up with the person on her way back to the school to get her bike.
Does anyone remember the gas station on the other side of the shopping center? Not the side where Mr. Burns has a station, if so what was the name of it? That station is no longer there, it's been gone awhile now.
It was a Shell station. And I definitely remember it because we always used the payphone in the parking lot.
Laura
Years ago when I was looking around Bay Village I walked over to that station. When I got there it struck me that the station was more likely the spot where Amy met the person. I thought too that she might have made the call from there.Was that an open area phone or one in a booth?
It was not a booth but a drive-up phone in the front part of the station. Remember those? You could pull your car alongside it and talk from your car.
Laura
Do you think that Amy could have made the call to her mother from there?
I'm trying to think out of the box here.If you take away all the junk that's been said over the years and just leave it an abduction and murder case and start at that point things seem to fit.
I think it's entirely possible that she made the phone call to her mother from there. I've always believed she called Margaret from somewhere close to Bay Square and before she got into a vehicle. I think her killer knew it would buy him time. There also used to be a payphone outside Burns Auto and there was one inside the Avellone's in Bay Square.
Sounds like we're getting down to the real things that happened here.
Laura can you tell me if Rainey parkway was there at that time? If so did it go thru to Bassett in Westlake?
Keep in mind, Margaret assumed Amy had called from home. If you are on a pay phone, you'll have a lot of background noise, regardless of in a store or outside. If you're in a house it'll be quiet.
Yes, Curious, that's something I've always thought about too. Oct. 27th 1989 was a gorgeous day and every kid in Bay was outside around the area of Bay Square. The phone that was outside Burns Auto would have been the most quiet. No kids around. Remember Rick Burns says he saw Amy in a car, in his parking lot? That would definitely fit.
Liz,
I'm not familiar with Rainey Pkwy. at all. Sorry!
To All:
Can anyone tell me if Rainey Park was there back in 1989? Or if it was did it go thru to Bassett? Did it connect to another road or two from Dover Center Road? Could a person have driven from Dover Center Road to Bassett by driving thru the park?
Laura
Here's a thought, what if it were true that the person that picked Amy up was definitly known to her and that person just got off work at 3:00 (according to the ten year report the call came in at 3:40 enough time for a person to drive from a place of work and still have time to wait and watch for Amy )and drove to the Shell station and waited until Amy started back for her bike. He may have told her he had to stop at his house first and change out of his work clothes and the man that was going to take her shopping was going to met them at his house. What if he gave Amy something to drink that had a relaxer in it, and while he was changing she made the phone call to her mother. Let's say that when the unknown man got there they changed cars. By that time Amy would have most likley been asleep and they put her inside something to carry her out to the car so she couldn't be seen.She wouldn't have been seen going down the highway either.Does any of this sound plausible? I don't know if it happened that way or not, it's just a thought.
Perhaps she drank Lemonade, remember the "Reading" on Renner's blog! Wasn't Amy seen walking away with this man? Burns claimed he saw Amy in a car, and the driver asked directions to 480 (a ruse) and probably said to put Amy at ease, then drove off in that direction, then said he had to go back to his house because he forgot something, perhaps he could have doubled back and went to the house on the map presented by Paula. Did anyone ever discover who that man was? Then Amy called from that house right there in Bay Village. Then he could have given her something to drink laced with something. Did they do a toxicology report? Anyone know the outcome?
Curious
I don't know what kind of tests were done, or could be done.What ever they found they blackedout. I don't recall James saying that he saw any reports.What he did say basicly was the autopsy left more questions then answers.What little he did see was so traumatic he doesn't care to share with the public.
It could have been lemonade,could have been anything as long as she drank it.If that happened.
The map was given to BVPD. No questions were ever asked about it. No one ever found out who the man was that drew it.No one knows anything and no one has really talked about it.
I've always thought the call came from within Bay Village because I had heard the call wasn't long distance. If it had been then the FBI would have had a record of it.
So, no one knows if any law enforcement ever questioned Paula Varney, or no they did not question her?
Curious
They absolutely did not question her.
Just putting this out there:
Did Mark know Ruth?
Liz,
Wasn't Paula the woman who owned the shop where the young man came in with the map? Why wouldn't they question her?
Also, Mark would have had to know Ruth if she spent that much time at their home. He was still living there. They hadn't separated yet. It's just strange that the public hadn't heard about her with all of the coverage the case got. They always look at family and close friends first.
Laura, did you know her? Forgive me if you have already addressed that.
Judi
Yes Paula is the woman that owns the store.
I spoke with Paula, she wants to know the samething.Paula faxed Det. Spaetzel a copy of the map to the old police station a long time ago, with her name and fax number. She also faxed him a copy of the map of the house in Westlake. Bill Hayes had said he had been there with Al Matlock. It is behind the Mihaljevic home. Paula and Bill Hayes are still waiting for someone to talk with them. Paula states that as far as she knows the man could have been Mark Spaetzel working undercover as it was around the ten year point and that, that could be the reason they never questioned her.
If Ruth was only going to the home when Mark was at work then he would not have known her. When I spoke with Det. Spaetzel he did not know of Ruth. He also called James in and requested everything he had on her after finding he had posted Ruths picture on his site. Ruth also told James she did not step forward before because she did not want to put the case in jepardy. Ruth also became very upset with James because he posted her picture on his site.So what was it that she doesn't want to talk about?
How could Mark not have known about Ruth!!! There is no way he didn't know.
BTW, having a code for your children was very common at that time, I had one with my children, as was having a separate phone line for them. More importantly what time did the phone call from Euclid Mall come into the Mihaljevic's home, the day Amy went missing, which line was it on?
I did not know Ruth at all. My relationship with Amy totally revolved around our time together at Holly Hill.
My opinion on drugging is that, if Amy was drugged, then the police would have revealed that to the public.
This has always been my take on Amy's abduction and murder: I believe that Amy was a target of a sex crime and not an intended murder victim. I think her abductor did not intend or plan to kill her but did so after she fought back against his sexual advances. I also believe this was a first murder for Amy's killer and that he killed again after her but changed his M.O. to something other than the phone call setup because he is smart and knows how to avoid being caught.
Mark said the phone call came from Midway Mall in the book. I'm thinking it was pretty much impossible for Amy to have called Margaret from Midway Mall before 3pm when the witnesses saw her in Bay Square at 2:45. Unless she called twice...that's a possibility.
Curious
The call that Amy made to her mom at work at the trading times was listed at 3:40 in the ten year report -- crime rant #577 that's the only call I know of. Margaret assumed Amy was calling from home.
Mark probably did know Ruth, the question is why didn't he say something to Det. Spaetzel about her? The thing is why wasn't she brought up before now?
Laura,
Mark said the call came from Euclid Mall in Renner's book. Where does Midway Mall come from? I still feel that in order for Margaret to have felt Amy was calling from home, Amy had to have called from inside someone's home, not a drug store, gas station, or a mall.
Liz,
How friendly are you with Renner? He seems to know a great deal about Ruth(he even gave her last name) and found her with relative ease. Ask him. So 19 years or so had passed and the BVPD had no idea of Ruth, you are kidding right?
Laura
The only statement released was from Lt. Wilson, he said Amy was stabbed in the neck and suffered a blow to the back of the head. Everything else was kept close to the vest. I hardly think they are going to mention drugs. That is only speculation at this point.
Fox 8 reported there was a red spot on her underwear, it was blood, most likly Amy's. This can be found on James site May 9th 2007 Autopsy. Material that was collected at the scene may contain the killers DNA. The report that was done by fox 8 said no sperm was found referenced a 1989 report that used 1989 technology. Material was collected that may contian the killers sperm.
Again there is only one phone call I'm aware of and it was to Margaret at work at trading times.
Curious
Ruth contacted James, she wanted to talk, they set up an appointment to met.Ruth gave him the info. he put on his site and gave him a few pictures.
I've followed James from his first book signing at Bay Village library. My thoughts are, someone might say something I haven't heard before and I didn't want to miss it. I've talked with James different times. James was in the dark about Ruth too, until she called him almost 20 years later. At first James thought that Ruth was known until he put the picture on his site. He was only wanting to share more pictures of Amy.Until Det. Spaetzel called him and wanted the low down on Ruth ,James hadn't a clue.
Euclid Mall is what I meant, sorry.
Unless Amy's kidnapper lived in Bay then it would be pretty hard for her to have called Margaret by 3:40 from his home. Remember the phone call still made Margaret uneasy and she left work? Maybe she heard background noise or something?
According to the autopsy report her underwear was on inside out. And the police said, on the day the found her body, that this was a sex crime. Check out those old news reports on you tube.
Am I the only one that thinks Ruth's statement "Ruth also told James she did not step forward before because she did not want to put the case in jepardy." Makes absolutely no sense. No sense.
That is a strange statement Ruth made and I definitely don't understand what she's getting at.
One more thing about the mall phone call that's bothering me. Mark was told by police that someone called his home from a pay phone at Euclid Mall. Did the police think it was Amy calling while "shopping" with her kidnapper? If so, why didn't they release that info to the media so that anyone who was at Euclid mall might remember seeing Amy?
There are so many things wrong with this investigation.
FWIW...
As you age, you gain wisdom and life experience, along with wisdome comes the ability to decipher all the BS that comes your way. Some things with this cases ring true more than others.
In this case, there is a power struggle between: FBI, BVPD, Ashland County Officials. Until a fresh set of eyes looks at all the information on Amy's case, that power struggle will continue, and the resolution is in limbo. What a shame. So how do we as citizens get the powers that be to work together and get this case looked at by fresh eyes? That is the only way this case will ever be solved. Somewhere within this maze is the truth, and someone has overlooked the piece that connects it together.
Perhaps the FBI knew of Ruth... and told her not to talk to anyone else reagrding Amy, or it could be something else.
To all:
Why were FBI agents from Quantico brought in to do a grid search in the field Amy was found in?
What was so important about Amy that they used a helicopter from Quantico with FBI agents to enter the house on co. rd. 500 in ashland and remove sections of the walls and floors? This was not just another run of the mill abduction and murder, what made it different?
Anyone here ever pay for her records in an online search? ie: birth, death record
Liz,
Very good question. The FBI gets involved in all child kidnap/murder cases now, not so sure that was the status quo in 1989, why would they have thought she was transported across state lines? What are your ideas?
Curious
I have a copy of her death certificate I'll try to post it some time today.
As for her Birth certificate, I spoke with the dept of vit. stats. in Ar. where Amy was born and they said " because it is an open case they are not allowed to make copies ".
Curious
Back in the time FBI was brought in on all child abductions. But why so many, that was a question that Sgt. Roger Martin brought up to Renner when he was writting his book.
The reason that they may have thought Amy was taken across state lines was because of the car that was in Burns gas station next to the building. It was said to have had out of state plates on it. Another reason could have been because of the public being good samaritans and taking handfuls of flyers with them when they were traveling out of state for the holiday.
Liz said: Can anyone tell me if Rainey Park was there back in 1989? Or if it was did it go thru to Bassett? Did it connect to another road or two from Dover Center Road? Could a person have driven from Dover Center Road to Bassett by driving thru the park?
Rainey does not connected to Dover Center. Rainey connects Bassett to Cahoon Rd. Rainey connects to Westchester Parkway, and empties out in front of White Oaks restaurant. If someone wanted to get from Dover Center to Bassett without going through Bay, then the best way would be going south to Detroit, and then Detroit to Bassett.
Re: Curious said, Mark said the call came from Euclid Mall in Renner's book
Can you please explain the call. I have not read the book, nor do I remember hearing about this growing up.
Esora
When James was putting things together for his first book he had talked with Mark. James had asked the question:
Did your phone records from the day Amy went missing show anything odd?
His reply," if I remember right,somebody called our house from the Euclid Mall, from a pay phone".
Pg. 122 in the first book.
To All
I'm having a few issues with my PC, I'll post the Death certificate as soon as I can.
Because I'm still having a problem with my pc it might be a good idea to just say what it says on the death certificate when someone asks,until I can get it on.
So the phone records showed Euclid Mall, but it did not show which pay phone Amy used in Bay?
Are there records to show the kidnapper calling Amy?
I just can not believe this has been 20 yrs. It just seems like yesterday in some aspects.
I thought it was stated repeatedly that the phone records at the time could not show local calls. You mean Euclid was considered long distance?
Amy called her mom at her work, The Trading Times newspaper, not at home. The police have never released any information about the phone records from the Trading Times so I'm guessing there was no way of tracing it.
Esora
There is a posibility that Mark wasn't remembering the right day as so many things were going on. Nothing was known about the Mall until the next day.
I can't see the person that took Amy letting her go into any place after he got her into a vehicle. He wouldn't want her to be seen. At that point she was his victim. He already had her, he didn't need another hour. He already chanced getting her in the vehicle,why do it again?
I say, she called from a private home when she called her mother,and she done that when the person wasn't in the room. I don't believe the person that took Amy would have knowingly let her make a call. That would have been stupid on his part.I believe the person gave Amy something to sedate her when he picked her up. Amy would have struggled shortly after discovering she was in trouble. I think that's why she wasn't the chitter chatter tpye girl her mother knew before the call.The blow to the head must have come after she was dead, say for intances when the snow plow hit her and thru her on top of that knoll where she was found.I could be wrong, but I'm not seeing that yet.
Funny, how Euclid Mall would show up on their phone records, but not calls made to the house by the kidnapper.
Esora,
that is exactly my point about any number showing up on the phone record. The fact that it's stated that there was no record of local numbers 'back then' always struck me as odd. Maybe I watched too much tv in my childhood but phone records local and otherwise always seemed to be pulled.
And she could have very easily called from the Shell station in the back seat of a car. That phone was over by all the trees and the guard rail and could have been quiet as it is down from the din of the shopping center. Could have used a code word with her mother and then was driven out of town before her mom was even able to leave work.
It's too much to rethink this because clearly we don't have all the information to put pieces together or something is very wrong with the info out there - and if whoever did this is reading any of these blogs - they must be having a good laugh to read all the theories. It makes me sick to think that.
One more thing about the phone call...Margaret said Amy sounded nervous, like she wanted to get off the phone. Something in the sound of her voice led Margaret to believe that something was wrong. I think that Amy called her mother because the kidnapper told her too because he knew it would buy him some time. I also think he was standing right next to her when she called. This little detail is one of the reason I have always thought that the killer knew Margaret and the Mihaljevic family.
Laura
Are you talking about the guy the cheif of police was referring to in his statement for the 20 year anniversary?
When Amy was first abducted, I thought I had read in the newspaper that when Margaret had questioned Amy about how the tryouts or practice went, Amy told her they were on a different day. I had always wondered if she was trying to secretly tip off her mother that something was wrong without alerting the killer. I believe that he was stadning right there, too.
I still just do not believe there is no records of phone calls to the house. Even if it was a local call. You would think the FBI could have found those out.
Did Amy have a bike? Was it found? Did she leave it at the middle school's bike rack? (I can't remember)
I really think the person who did this, is known to the family. How else did he get the information about her mother? Unless, someone told him, without knowing what they were saying. Such as another student. He had to of been around in Bay, stalking/watching to find out a pattern.
Also, I think she met him before at least once. I think she would have gone more willingly with someone she had at least seen once, instead of a stranger saying I will find you, or I am the guy in the blue shirt.
It angers me the BVPD really seems to be doing nothing. And I still can not believe it has been 20 years. It just seems like yesterday I was in the middle school and this was going on. I still have the white ribbon all the students were given to wear.
Liz,
Where could I read what the police chief stated on the 20th anniversary?
Anonymous said...
I had always wondered if she was trying to secretly tip off her mother that something was wrong without alerting the killer. I believe that he was stadning right there, too.
If once meeting him, and she thought something was wrong, then how did he get her into the car? This was a public place, she could have screamed, but did not.
Amy had left her bike in the bike rack behind the Middle School that day. It was still there the next morning when word was just making its way through the town, as I recall.
This is what I'm talking about:
taken from James site.
Tuesday, February 16, 2010
Did Bay Village Chief Let Something Slip?
I didn't even catch this.
Apparently, back in October, when asked about Amy's killer, BV Police Chief David Wright told Channel 3 News that he believes the suspect lives in the "West Shore" area.
"West Shore" is local slang for the Bay Village, Rocky River, Westlake area. "Living within 5 miles of Bay Village," he told the reporter.
You can see the Channel 3 vid here.
This leads me to believe that BVPD may have someone they like for this. One explanation for not spending more time on Runkle or other suspects is that they have another suspect they like better, though Det. Spaetzel has long denied this.
But why else would Wright say such a thing? That statement would seem to specifically rule out several suspects in their mind--Runkle, Kapela, Bound--who live outside that radius as well as suspects that are dead--Brahler, Strunak.
Three suspects come to mind that still live that close to Bay--Mr. Harvey, the Math Teacher, the Lawyer.
I have a big problem with this line of thinking, though. You have to assume the man who committed this crime was comfortable enough to return to Bay after the murder. I don't buy that. Not with two eye witnesses who could have bumped into him again on the street and identified him as the last person they saw with Amy.
Honestly, I don't know what to make of this. It's a damn weird thing to say.
Posted by James Renner at 7:09 PM
Anonymous:
I believe that to be true, Amy had told her mother it was a different day. It could have very well been Amy's way of trying to alert her mother that something was a miss. Yes he could have been standing there to make sure she didn't say anything.
Esora:
We don't know how well she knew him if at all. We are speculating that she did.He could have shown her a fake badge or a gun, knife? What ever he did it was enough to put the fear of God in her.
Growing up in Bay, it was always rumored the person who did it was the man that lived in Fairview, that killed himself in the 1990's.
I don't think it is "Mr Harvey," from what I know about him, I don't think he did this. However, on James' blog he posted the police blurb about a man exposing himself to people in Lakewood. That seems more like him. Plus, yes he lived close to where Amy was taken, but that would have been too risky to be seen walking to the house with her.
I think Westshore, also takes in North Olmsted. Isn't that were the dentist lives, that James has talked about?
Esora
That would have been the guy that drank dry gas? If so I don't see where he fits into all the things that's been said. As far as I know, he was just a concerned citizen trying to help and it was another retired FBI agent that flew thru town who thought this guy done it.Not everyone agreed.
Mr.Harvey the handyman, didn't live in the house just down the street from the shopping center. His parents lived down the street. When they passed he was at the house cleaning it up. That was after Amy went missing just a few years ago.
I'm not sure what all villages cover west shore.
Because Amy knew of the divorce, do you think it is possible that Margaret revealed to much personal info. to the Lawyer?
Ya know this could be where the FBI is saying that the abductor had personal family information.
That same attorney could have been involved with the Westlake house that was possibly seized in a drug raid. Upon checking ,the house was empty July 1989-January1990 It was sold with a sheriff's deed. The thing with the house was,it had just been purchased in January of 1989.And it is just behind the Mihaljevic home in Westlake. Just a thought.
I don't know how the guy killed himself. I am just saying this is what was said in Bay at the time. It was also rumored that after he died, his family went in and destroyed his belongings, which included the horse earrings missing from Amy. Again this is all rumor, that was going around town.
As for Mr. Harvey, he owns and lives in that house now.
What is the source of the divorce? I didn't think that came about until after Amy was killed.
As for a lawyer. Why would a lawyer target Amy? That seems kind of random. I also have never heard of a house being seized due to drugs. Is this why you were asking about Rainey Parkway?
In James's book, he mentioned that the Harveys' family home contained gold carpeting which was later deposited in the trash. He had alerted the police that the carpeting was outside, but I don't know whether or not they paid attention. I wish those fibers could have been analyzed and compared to those found on Amy. Of course, if Mr. Harvey was a well-known handyman, some people would have recognized him at the plaza if he took Amy. That makes me thin it wasn't him.
I am with Judi, Mr Harvey is too recognizable in town. I don't want to go into detail about Mr Harvey's house, as I don't think he did it, but the house is well lets just say near too many businesses, that I think someone would have seen Amy going to that house.
Sorry for the typo. I meant "think".
I just read a previous post. I had read that Billy S.'s family cleaned out his apartment after he passed away; but I have never heard that they found Amy's earrings in there, or that they were ever seen in his possession. Has that ever been substantiated as a fact?
Judi,
I don't think any of it is a fact. I think it was just small town gossip. But these rumors have been going on for years. Every version I have heard basically says his family knew he was quilty and they cleaned out his place before the police could search. This has been "floating" around Bay for at least 15 years.
re: something I posted earlier. I see James wrote in a story, Amy had over heard her parents talking divorce. But I did not see anything about Margaret contacting a lawyer.
Esora,
I totally with you that the Lakewood blurb about the guy exposing himself sounds like Mr. Harvey. Physical description fits too. I remember seeing him at a Bay High football game once and my friend said, "See that guy? (pointing at Mr. Harvey) He flashed my sister last week."
I don't think that Mr. Harvey killed Amy because he is very recognizable but there's no denying he is a shady character. Mr. Harvey is definitely NOT the person Maddie and Julius saw talking to Amy. He is a very distinct looking guy and they would have had no trouble picking him out of a photo line up, if they were the given the chance.
I've also heard scary stories about Mr. Harvey's father and his violent temper.
Here's one last Mr. Harvey tidbit...I just found out (last month) that Mr. Harvey's father was a police sketch artiist for the Cleveland Police Dept. My first thought was, "Oh my god, he altered the composite sketch so it didn't look like his son!" But then I realized that he was not the person who did the composite of Amy's abductor, it was just a coincidence. Still strange though.
One of my friends, who was interviewed for Mr. Renner's book, swears that the person he saw in the Square on Oct. 27th 1989 was Billy Strunak. He also told me that he remembers seeing him in the square a lot BEFORE Amy was taken and he was always just sitting on a bench watching the kids. I firmly believe that Amy was "stalked" before she was taken. I think he watched her for awhile and maybe even listened in on some conversations. He might have even seen Margaret at some point in Bay Square. I'm not convinced that Billy Strunak did it but he has always been someone I wondered about. Especially the way he gave gifts. His body was cremated so, unfortunately, basic DNA testing is out.
I've always wondered about Billy, too, because I thought a witness commented on the man's reddish cast to his face. Billy had a skin condition. He also seemed to dwell on what Amy's last moments were like when he helped out at the command center. As far as DNA, didn't he supposedly father a child that was placed for adoption? I'm sure the DNA could be obtained that way.
If it was Billy, how did he aquire the information about the family and the unlisted unmber?
I don't think Amy ever saw a mall that day. She probably did call from a home or a public phone that could be accessed from the car. He probably didn't want to risk her creating a scene in public.
Judi,
I think Mr Harvey has "issues" (alcohol and etc.) but from what I know about him, I don't think he sounds like he would be the type to plot this out the way the killer did.
I don't think James has found a copy of the local phone book from 1989 to know if Amy's phone number was not in it at all. We have a little phone book here in Bay, that lists the children's names and etc too. But also, Amy did pass out babysitting fliers, so who knows. Perhaps one of them ended up on the drug store bulletin board there in the shopping center.
As for DNA, I am sure the FBI could obtain a sample from a sibling of Billy's (I believe he had siblings).
I really have no thoughts on who killed her. Things Billy did during the search seems rather odd for just being a concerned citizen, plus he lived within 5 miles or so of Bay, as the BVPD captain said.
However, things about Runkle seem strange too. Too many similarities and etc.
It is very frustrating that it seems like the police are doing nothing! The only time we hear about it in the media is on the anniversary around Halloween. I really would like the BVPD and FBI to be more vocal so that we do at least feel something is being done.
oops sry I meant my last comment to be to Laura.
Just went over to James' site and see today's blog is about Mr Harvey.
I have a copy of the phone directory from 1989 and Amy's number is listed.
So then, someone would have just had to of followed her home one day, and from the address, could have gotten her name and number.
Esora
Could be, however it could have also been another perp driving by, spotted Amy, took a chance, grabbed her and went on. Amy could have thought it was the man she was waiting for and just got in.
Kurt could have done it as he is a career criminal- he's had 38 charges against him thru the years.(Rocky River court papers). He did live at 491 Parkside.
Now look at it this way:
What if because it's been 20 years the police have made up their minds that it is Kurt, they have fingered him for everything under the sun, which caused him to collect all those charges making him a career criminal. What if the house across from the police dept. had nothing to do with it at all, and the police just tried to make everything fit Kurt because of all his antics. As with the map that was drawn in Paula's store. The drawer could have been an off duty cop from Bay.
Billy Strunak:
Rumors,Rumors,Rumors!!!
No where has it been said that Amy's earrings were found.
It was later stated that the apartment was not cleaned before the investigators went in.
Billy asked about Amy's last moments as I see it because he was thinking of taking his own life, which he did.
Part of Runkles family thinks he's guilty too. So,there you are.
What's going to happen 5 years down the road when technology catches up to the DNA and it's not Kurt or Billy. Then what the hell they gona do? What a f----- waste of time!!!
Get a grip people think out of the box..
What is the real reason this happened to start with????
I think Kurt was very capable of racking up those charges by himself. So I don't think he was targeted by the police. From things I know about him, I don't think he did it.
Also, Kurt's alibi is too strong. I believe he and Casey were childhood friends.
As for Anonymous, I never said it was a FACT the earrings were found. I just said these are the RUMORS going around Bay. With what seems like no progress going on in the case, people will begin to talk, and try to find ways to explain why there have been no movements.
I guess the ultimate question is WHY. Why was she kidnapped? What was the goal?
I don't get the Parkside reference. That is on the opposite side of town from Amy's house.
I see a comment I made was not posted to James' site. Basically what I said was, to go from being a flasher to being a kidnapper is a giant leap. From flashing, I think the next progression would be a sexually related crime such as rape.
Ensora
He used his so called friend, the alibi was debunked long ago, they were not together that day as first thought according to statements made.
I have never seen that the alibi was debunked. I thought that he was in fact at the football game, and that others even saw him there.
Ensora:
James has to ok the comments first, before he puts them on.
Can you check on his site to see if you can get that video that he just posted yesterday to come on? I've had other people email me (letshearit2010@hotmail.com)to say it doesn't work. I got it to work lastnight one time.
Anonymous:
I don't think any person on this blog wants anyone falsely accused. We just want justice for Amy, and hope that conversation can generate the lead that is the missing piece of the puzzle. What do you think happened? Are you saying that you agree with part of Runkle's family? I am just trying to figure out your frame of reference.
Yes, I know the comments are ok'd before they are posted. Comments made after I did mine were posted. Other things I have said have not been posted either but that is ok. I don't mind.
As for the ch 3 video, I can get to the video player, but no video comes up.
Ensora:
I did get it to play. It stays blank until I type her name, in the upper right hand corner, then a car add comes on twice. Then the round arrow is where I click in the left corner.
Ok just got the video to work. I had to go to the video search on ch. 3 and put in Amy's name to find the story.
The news anchor said the chief believes the killer is still here within 5 miles of Bay Village. There is no video of the chief saying this, nor did I hear the phrase "West Shore".
The chief just says they have talked to over 20,000 people, and have a list of 16,000 suspects and they believe they have talked to him.
no judi, I was making a point that the same thoughts were made about Billy and the teacher.
Ensora:
The cheif did say it, I have it on tape. I don't know why it's not on the video.
To Anonymous, I agree. Rumors have been said about a lot of people involved in this case. Part of me doesn't think James should have given Mr Harvey's real name yet.
Liz,
Interesting. Maybe the clip online is the edited down version for a later broadcast. Unlike, when a story first airs it tends to be a little longer.
Either way, 20 years is too long to let this remain unsolved.
Ensora:
Kurts name was bound to come out sometime,I heard of it before the book was released.
20 years, yes I agree
I know "Mr Harvey"'s real name was already out there on the internet from a previous article published by James. But it is interesting that a former BVPD Chief is telling people he believes he was involved in the crime. Seems rather strange, when the BVPD claim James is putting their investigations in "jeopardy" and then to turn around themselves and say this. They don't appear to listen to their own advice.
Let me just say, I have no proof that Mr Harvey is the flasher, just the the description seems to match him, and his reported behavior. However, I do think going from an alleged flasher to kidnapper is a LARGE step. I think a sexually oriented crime would be the next step. (I have no reason to believe Mr Harvey has committed such crime either).
The reason Kurt's alibi has been questioned is because Casey Coleman was known (very hush hush, of course) to be a big drinker.
The police questioned whether he was remembering Oct. 27th 1989 accurately or if he was possibly confusing it with another football game. I don't think they wanted to make a big deal of it because Casey Coleman was a local celebrity.
I'm not certain whether anyone else besides Casey Coleman could confirm they saw him at the game.
The yellow house on Dover Center was Kurt's parents house but his house (the one mentioned in the book) is on Parkside in Bay.
I grew up in Bay and remember the Bay Directory well. I think it's definitely possible that the killer found her name and number in there. However, it's also entirely possible he got her name and number in another way too.
The talk about the 'next step' makes it sound like there are logical progressions. Usually there are but often times they are not - things happen quickly - unexpectedly or take a surprising turn even for the perv. Let's not fall into any profiling - that works sometimes and often times it tends to screw the focus of possibilities up.
As for someone being at a football game - if Amy was in the plaza after school - 3ish - the high school football games don't start until 7:30. What do you think you can do in 4 hours if you wanted to or had to?
Do any of you know of a person in the Bay area that drives a blue buick and travels back and forth to Indiana to see family?
This was brought to my attention recently,just thought I'd ask. I'm not sure if they ment the person was driving it 20 yrs. ago or now. Their claim was that the guy that took Amy was driving a Blue Buick.
And another thing, I'm really pushing this Westlake house because of the story that Bill Hayes talked about. According to Bill while he and Al Matlock were at that house Al had gone into the kitchen with the woman that lived there named Sandy ( not sure of name). Bill stayed in the other room and overheard this convesation,"Al, you guys are going to get into trouble for doing that to that little girl" Al's reply,"nobody cared about that little.....anyways".
When I called BVPD I spoke with Elish and questioned him about that house. He said" we know all about that house" end of conversation. So What do they know?
so, who is Bill Hayes and when did he go to the police with that conversation?
Bill Hayes is in James first book. Bill use to hang around with Al Matlock. They use to party together, drink do drugs and such. Bill stopped all of that years ago. Al continued. According to Bill it had to be back when the people were still living in that house in Westlake. Bill and Al were going there to get GOOD drugs so he says.Bill also said Al and him were in the front yard of that house when Al pointed over to the back of the Mihaljevic home and said" that's where that little....lived they killed".According to neighbors when the house was vacant they found alot of junk in the basement that delt with drugs.Such as grow lights and things. The paper work on that house has totally changed from when the sale happened. As far as I can figure it had to be in the fall or early spring. The paper work states the house was sold in January of 1990. Bill had to be there before that. The guy that owned it only had it for a short time, to short for foreclosure.It looks like it sat empty from July of 1989 thru January 1990 on paper. The newer papers show the last owner never exsisted.The papers show the house went from the previous owner to the owner today skipping one owner, the one Bill knew.
You can not see the back of Amy's house from Westlake. If you are going to see a house it would be on Norfolk (which Linford goes into).
Is Al Matlock, the guy from Holly Hills, or is he the guy that killed the girl down around Steubenville?
Wait, wait... you mean Runkle's not the killer? I thought that was stated by Renner as fact. How does James get off on publishing all of these people's names? This isn't investigative journalism....it's irresponsible journalism.
Thank you Liz for starting this website...I just hope you don't do what James does and not allow messages to be published because you don't agree with them.
Esora:
You can see the back of Amy's house, I have, I've even taken pictures of it. My pictures are from a few years back and you can definitly see the house from Westlake.Check it out on google live map.
Al Matlock is the guy that stayed with his relatives in the log cabin house just a few hundred feet from where Amy was found on county road 1181 in Ruggles.
I don't intend on taking off any messages that are posted here. I can't pick and choose who can voice an opinion. At this point the killer could be anyone. What we need here is input.I want everyone to see what is being said, it can't hurt the case as far as I can see. I met a man years ago who told me not to worry about anything in life because in 100 years no one will care anyways. He was right. So if I disagree with you or you disagree with me that's ok. go for it.Amy's case isn't going to be solved by people not talking about it.It's my feeling this is what should have been done years ago.
James is fairly new to all this,he's not seasoned enough yet,but he's getting there. Just like making your first meal or fixing your first flat tire you don't always get it right from the get-go. I'm just saying it takes time to get into the perfect grove,you have that in all walks of life.
James is no different from the rest of us wanting to solve this case. His zeel to put the killer behind bars sometimes gets alittle over whelming,he means well. James can tell you that I've told him I'm just as passionate about the man I think is involved as he is about Runkle, that doesn't make us bad, just eager!
Just one other thing, we do not need the spelling police here.don't repost your sorry, we all know what you are saying.This is not a school,there are no test.When we get done no one gets a grade. I goof up, misspell,forget letters just everything, because I get in a hurry just like many of you do I'm sure.With that said --- Moving On.
Interesting. I haven't been on Lindford in years. I think I was in High school the last time I was on the road. I didn't think you could see her house. I thought old Bassett Rd curved out behind the house (across the tracks in Westlake).
Ok so if Al was involved, then the big thing is motive. Why Amy? Why plan this out so much?
Ok just looked at google maps and you are correct. I was thinking her house was on the straight part of the street, not the curve.
The house in Westlake, do you mean the run down house there on old Bassett Rd? (it looks kind of like a junk yard).
Hahaha...ok ok....I was the spelling police on Crimerant. I only did that because James did it on the Morning Journal site. I really wish that Renner wasn't someone that I always had to take with a grain of salt. I know he wants to solve a case and all but he has made money off of it.
Liz, your candor is certainly refreshing. I appreciate you not shutting down comments that are against your opinions. Let's solve this.
Liz,
Would you like to share your scenario, from start to finish?
It's amazing how things related to this case just disappear, people included.
To anonymous,
Why poke at Renner, he wrote a book, that was his job. I certainly expect to be compensated for my work. I've written things that firmly state my disagreement with him and they were posted. There is a reason for moderation on his site. I really don't want this to turn into a Renner bashing thread. He has certainly made us all aware that there are some scummy people we call neighbors. Let's take the high road.
Everyone has ther own perspectives on this case. We all share a passion for getting the truth out.
Esora:
Why Amy? Why plan this out so much?
It's a known fact that Amy was unsupervised a good deal of the time in the summer and early fall of 1989. That would give the abductor the ok,she's attainable.I'm assuming here that he had already talked with a few other men about what they could do with a girl Amy's age if they had one.The only thing they needed to do now was to befriend her. So one of them did.
It's my belief that the " plan" was made up by a few different people. I don't think Amy was killed in Bay, or the first day. These men needed her for something. I think her death was unplanned.I don't think it was an accident, I believe the course of things that took place with her came to the point that there was no alternative. One can only imagine that if Amy was hurt these men could not have taken her to any hospital,she was a kidnap victim,she knew them, they would go to jail.
Esora:
The house in Westlake is the one right beside the bank,or the fourth one down from the curve. Note to that the driveway goes from street to street,Crocker to Bassett. Amy could have ridden her bike in the bank parkinglot and talked to the man at that house while he was outside at the same time maybe setting on his steps.
Anonymous:
Let's by all means do that!!!
Thank You for your comments.
Curious:
I'd love to share my scenario with everyone. What I don't want to happen is for what I say to change anyone elses opinion of what they think happened. I could be 100% wrong (I don't think so),they could be right and not say, we would still be in the same boat as we are now. I don't want to miss the opportunity of someone solving this.I will share parts that I have as we go along.I hope that's ok with everyone.I just don't want to go from the begining to the end to start with.
Does anyone find it odd that Bay has a man they think it is and so does Ashland? Do you think these two men know each other? Does anyone know if "Kurt" hung around in Westlake on Bassett? Do you think "Kurt"thought himself a chic magnet or did he truley like little girls 20 years ago?
Left the following on James' site today, but don't know if it will make it on there. Thought I'd post it here too in case one of you guys has the answer...
James, I was skimming through your book a couple weeks ago, and something in there did not sit well with me. It's probably nothing, but for some reason I can't get it out of my mind. Here goes...
P. 143 - You talk about a friend of Amy's named Patricia, who worked at the Sunkist Tanning Salon in the Shopping Plaza. The book states that on the afternoon of Oct 27, Patricia saw Amy through the salon window, and they waved to each other. "As Amy approached the plaza the next afternoon, they waved to each other through the wide window of the salon."
Note the "as Amy approached the plaza," which indicates that Patricia saw Amy before she got to the main plaza and Baskin Robbins. Here's my issue: if you were traveling east (which Amy would have been - Middle School to plaza) the salon was located past Baskin Robbins. It was on the outside of the shopping plaza between Baskin Robbins and Burn's garage. So if she did see Amy, Amy would have been walking away from BR towards Burn's garage.
It makes me wonder:
1. Was Amy walking near or with someone at the time? Did Patricia unknowingly see Amy with her abductor?
2. Was her abductor at Burn's garage calling Amy to "come here"?
3. Did Amy's abductor send her over to Burn's garage to use the phone to call her mother, and follow shortly thereafter?
4. Since the Sabos owned the salon, did Amy walk over there to see if Kristen or her mom was there?
5. Did Amy walk up that side of the strip and double back before finally settling at Baskin Robbins?
6. Did Patricia simply have her dates mixed up?
Can this discrepancy be explained?
Liz,
Has someone told you Amy would go to Westlake on her bike?
To Anonymous,
Good point about the tanning place. To approach the plaza, she would have to be coming from the east, heading west.
I did not know the Sabo's owned that. But this could give Amy even more of a reason to hang out in the shopping center, and a greater chance to be seen by someone.
Where is Al Matlock now?
Anonymous:
Al Matlock, the last I heard he was traced to Florida and then they lost him .
Esora:
I'm just assuming that she could have met the guy that way. I don't know it to be fact.
Another thing,
it may be that if Amy was coming from that direction their may be something to that map drawn for Paula Varney.
Anonymous:
I really need to think about that. I'll post later.
I am not saying she did not go to the bank in Westlake, but just was curious. I can not remember when it changed, but Martin's deli on Bassett (in Bay) used to be a combo of Goomba Nick's Pizza and a small convenient store owned by a Lebanese man. If the men stayed at the house in Westlake, it is possible they just went straight down Bassett into Bay to this place, and saw Amy there.
Do you have a theory as to why they picked Amy? Did she see something she should not have?
The drawn map is still kind of a puzzle. It is hard to tell if when the person wrote "ice scream shop" if they meant it to be there in the north west corner (which it wasn't), or is just saying there was an ice cream shop in the shopping center.
Interesting post on James' blog today that Mr Harvey could have been a sub in North Olmsted. Has it ever been stated what the phone calls to the girls in North Olmsted were about? I got the impression they were more sexual/sleezy in nature, and not like the content of Amy's call of wanting to buy a parent a gift.
Just thinking out loud here. What if it is just a coincidence, there was some perv calling girls and following them in a white van. (In Bay we were taught to fear white vans, but I don't recall a white van ever really being described as part of Amy's abduction.) And that once Amy was kidnapped the perv got scared, perhaps thinking he would be accused of taking Amy, so he stopped (or dramatically changed it behavior).
I have always been convinced that Amy was stalked and killed by someone who watched her either at Holly Hill or somewhere in Bay Village. It seemed like the FBI were very interested in the Holly Hill connection because when they questioned me they asked a ton of questions about the farm but very little else. Maybe they were focusing on HB then or maybe they had another reason?
I agree with Liz that her death was unplanned. I think what started as a sex crime escalated to a homicide because she resisted his sexual advances.
I'm wondering if there is any way we can get Amy's case investigated by someone other than BVPD. Can we petition the state to have it investigated by a "cold case unit" that has experience in this kind of crime? Any ideas?
Anonymous:
First we have to know if the information James recieved is accurate or not.I didn't catch the part about the woman being in the tanning salon.Normaly the woman would see Amy on her bike true or false? If Amy wasn't on that bike seems to me that would have stuck in her mind to remember.So it very well may be that she did see Amy that day.
The story that the man told Paula in her store may have some truth in it as the house was across the street from the police station. Maybe someone motioned to Amy to come to him. No one seen her get into any car, could be she just went to him. I don't know.I'm unclear as to what was seen from the tanning salon.I'll put that on my list of need to know things.
It was years ago when I was in that tanning salon, but from the front window I am pretty sure if you were seated at a desk you really could have only seen the police station (directly across) and to the east the northern part of the Dover Center/Wolf intersection. To the west of the police station is a grassy area with Bay Way cabin set back too far to see from the window. (I know you meant you would look into the book and not what was the actual view, just saying).
I guess it is possible that Amy did pace up and down in front of the shopping center waiting, and the person at the salon missed her going towards Dover Center, and just saw her walking back towards Baskin Robins.
Why do you think Amy's body was kept for so long before being dumped? Why not dump her body right away?
Esora:
I think your right about the caller to the other girls possibly being someone different. I really don't think they are the same people. I myself am not including them in this case at this point. I may have to think about putting them back in at someother time,just right now.
I don't think that any white van had a thing to do with what happened to Amy. I believe it was total confusion.The way it looks, the FBI only came down here looking at Runkle because,of trying to connect the girls in north olmsted to Amy because they all receieved phone calls and they all had been to the science center. And somewhere along the line the sign in book vanished. Runkle probably still remains on there list but it looks like they haven't persued it any further. The last I know of them they were in the Ruggles area looking for Al Matlock.So untill James comes up with somebody else that's probably where it's going to be setting.
At this point I don't think it is a "big thing" the North Olmsted girls were at the nature center too, because basically every school aged person went on a field trip there in this area.
I also don't see why it is so important to get it officially confirmed Runkle volunteered there. Several of his former students confirmed it. Even if the nature center confirms it, does not mean he killed her.
The white van thing started around the time Amy was kidnapped and I think it just crossed over. The white van part I believe came from a girl I went to school with who also received the phone calls, and she said parked outside her house was the white van, and that she saw it around Bay.
Laura:
Because Amy was at Holly Hill often especially the last week in October is more then likely the reason they asked all the question, in other words it was like Amy's second home.
They discounted HB shortly after.I don't know if he is still on either list.
I'm checking into finding out about what needs to be done for cold cases right now.
The only other idea I have is for everyone to ask there friends and neighbors about anything they might remember and get it on here. We just may get that last little thread that finally ties it all together.
Esora:
I believe they really didn't know what to do with her. I'm thinking that it wasn't supposed to go that far. We can only speculate as to what their reasoning was.
I've been to the shopping center many times and will retun again when weather permits and check out that area of the salon.
Amy could have been pacing, she was looking for that man to pick her up.
Esora:
The map,he said that he knew that the ice cream shop was there but while drawing the map was confused to which corner to put it on.
I don't think Amy saw anything. She was just available and they knew where they could get a girl.
If that lady Sandy warned Al Matlock that he and someone else were going to get into trouble for "doing that to that little girl", it certainly appears that he was involved somehow in her abduction. He didn't deny that he'd done anything to Amy when Sandy said that.
Who is Sandy?
Okay - considering all things are possible consider some things may be over thought.
It is possible that any number of creeps mentioned or not mentioned had their eye on Amy.
It is also possible that she was receiving calls of a sexual nature or even just a boyfriend like tone from someone she did not know or that had no knowledge of her family. Random happens. Then she agreed to meet him but was too embarrased to tell even her closest friend, (there are things I don't tell my closest friend) so she herself made up that she was going with someone to buy a gift for her mom.
But if it wasn't random and someone that had some knowledge of her life - maybe she went for another reason? Was there something this person knew that no one else did? Did Amy think she was in on something other than a surprise for her mom? Did she think she was helping someone, somewhere?
I say this because - I am in my 50's and I can remember being around 9 or 10 and someone calling my house and questioning me like a survey about panty hose and bra size. I was smart and mature but it still took me a beat to catch on and I wasn't interested and I never told anyone. So these kinds of calls are definitely not new. And kids - even the best and the smartest still do unpredictable things even though people that know them swear they never would.
So the question remains why was Amy intrigued enough to go? concerned enough to go? confused enough to go? I think something more was going on around her at that time that may hold more clues. Were her teachers, school counselors interviewed and how deeply? Did she or her family go to church? Was she involved in any other sports or lessons or extracurriculars?
There's got to be a loose end somewhere...
Not only 'who is Sandy' - where is she now?
Sandy is the lady who was talking to Al Matlock, warning him that he was going to get in trouble. She lived at the house in Westlake.
The house next to the bank in Westlake?
To anonymous,
Those are good points. We really do not know what was said on the phone. Just because she told her friend she was going to buy a gift for her mother, doesn't mean that is what the man on the phone told her.
Also, someone in the comments section on James' site said Amy was telling people she had a "boyfriend Kurt". It should be noted, there was a boy in the school named Kurt (he has passed away).
Esora,
Are you thinking of Kurtis Kinzle? That's the only Kurt I can remember from Bay.
Liz,
If you share your version of events, I don't really think it's going to change people's perceptions, it may open new doors, or fill in gaps. Have you gone to any LEA with your version of events? If so, did they do anything? Have they told you to keep quiet, obstruction of justice perhaps?
IMO, by not coming forward with information the torment continues, and we all keep chasing our tails. That is EXACTLY why this case has not been solved!
Is it just me or does someone else think that story of buying the gift for Amys mom sound a bit hookey?Is that really what she told her friend?Could she have said something different?
Anonymous,
Quite honestly no, not if she knew the person who was making the call.
What really should bother you is the police officer that was in the plaza while Amy was being led away.
Yes, Laura that is who I mean.
I personally know 2 people (besides Kristen Balas) that Amy told she was "going shopping with a friend" after school on Friday. She also said they were going to Parmatown Mall.
I definitely think he used the shopping ruse on Amy. More proof that he knew Margaret, I think. I'm guessing that he knew Margaret was upset due to her divorce and that Amy would have loved to cheer her up. Amy cared very much about her Mom's happiness as most little girl's do.
One of the conversations I had with Amy at Holly Hill just prior to her death was about her mother and how she was mad at her. Amy was crying as we talked and brushed one of the horses. I told Amy about my mom being mad at me for trying to wear Lee Press-On Nails to school and that made her laugh. I've always though that if someone (I never saw anyone) was listening in on that conversation they would have learned a great deal about how to lure Amy into a trap.
Laura,
What was Margaret mad at Amy for?
Why Parmatown, and not Westgate or Great Northern Mall?
Question:
Why was it that Ruth cut Amy's hair?Did Ruth work at the beauty and tanning salon? Why if Amy knew the Sabos so well didn't they cut her hair after all they said Amy's hair was dishuffled which made her look like a ragamuffin.
Esora:
I think it was because they would have been farther away from the area.
Laura:
I don't know why Margaret was angery with Amy.
Curious:
We don't know if anyone lead Amy away.
She could have just walked away by herself.
Was Kurt ever at the any of the horse stables?
Liz,
Maddie stated Amy was led away.
Curious:
I stand corrected, thanks
Have you checked out my other page?
I'm not sure WHY Margaret was angry with Amy or if she even really was angry with her, it could have just been Amy's perception of the situation. Amy just told me, when I asked her why she was crying, that her mom was mad at her.
On page 6 of a Google search of Amy's name a headline comes up that I can not seem to access through Cleveland.com to read the entire article. Does anyone remember this/know about this? I was wondering why he was a suspect in the first place.
Rape suspect, James E Vachuska, 28, not ruled out in Amy Mihaljevic's abduction
then later
James E Vachuska in Louisanna day Amy was abducted
Anonymous:
I do remember James E. Vachuska in this. He's the man that killed a young boy at about the same time. The thing with him was when this happened to Amy he was in Louisianna. If I remember correctly. I'll look up my Newspaper article and post later about him.
Liz said: Why if Amy knew the Sabos so well didn't they cut her hair
The tanning salon was not a beauty salon. It was just tanning beds.
Esora:
Thank you for clearing that up.
Anonymous:
Anonymous said...
Not only 'who is Sandy' - where is she now?
Sandy and her husband Dave were the people that lived in the house in Westlake when Bill Hayes went there. Dave was a truck driver. I don't know where they are now.
I get Paramtown would be getting Amy away from Bay even more (I don't believe he intended to take her there.) But I mean why be so specific. Why not just say the mall, or lie and say Westgate. To tell her a mall that was not that close seems just odd to me.
Something else that I just thought of. So Amy's house got a call from Euclid Mall that day. What if the assumption there were more than one man is correct, and the partner who was not in Bay at the time, called Amy's house to see if she was there. Since she did not answer, that told them, their plan was being set into motion.
Esora:
Interesting take on that.Could be.
Does anyone really think Amy's kidnapper was being honest with her when he said we'll go to Parmatown Mall? Do you really think he would take the chance of her telling someone where they were going? - which she did. My guess is it doesn't matter at all what destination was said - there was never an intention to go but maybe if it was discovered she was missing to send authorities on a wild goose chase.
Liz,
Do you have a last name for Sandy??
Curious:
No, I have no last name for Sandy and her husband Dave.
Anonymous:
I believe you to be right about the destination.
Liz,
I just e-mailed you a PDF of the 1985 deed.
Anonymous:
James E. Vochuka, he kidnapped the Jacob Wetterling boy from St. Joseph, Minnesota and looked alot like the composite that was first done in Amy's case. He was in Louisianna at the time Amy went missing as far as I can tell, so he was disregarded as a person of interest.
To All:
Checkout James site. He has posted the video.
Liz,
How do you know who kidnapped Jacob Wetterling? As far as the public knows, it's still an open but cold case. I'm just wondering how you got this info about Jacob. Is this a person they are sure who did it but don't have the evidence to prosecute?
Anonymous:
Yes, that would be my guess, I'm just going on what is said in an old article. How true it is I haven't got a clue.I haven't kept up with that case.
Okay....
What I find very odd is this:
Amy was abducted around 2:15-2:30 PM.
Amys Mothers received the call from Amy at approximately 3:30pm.
So at least an hour passed between her abduction and the call.
Amy could not have called the plaza. What did the killer do, hang around there in broad daylight for a hour w Amy then after an hour let her call??
That doesn't make any sense. Amy may have called from the place where she had been killed.
And there is no reason to believe that Amy knew her abductor or that he was a friend if the family.
The reason?
Because there were several girls who received phone calls w that same pitch before Amy.
Meaning?
The police investigated this and found out there was no hang ups before the girls received the calls. In other words, the killer didn't keep trying to call and call trying to get the girls alone. He knew exactly when all of them were alone and called. He did his homework. He was stalking them and their families. The same w Amy.
To say that any knew her killer then we would have to say the other girls also knew him too. What are the odds of that? The killer just happens to be the Gardner, barber, teacher, etc of all several girls and their families and after 30 yrs the police and fbi never once made this connection???
And there is no reason to believe that Amy knew her abductor or that he was a friend if the family.
The reason?
Because there were several girls who received phone calls w that same pitch before Amy.
Meaning?
The police investigated this and found out there was no hang ups before the girls received the calls. In other words, the killer didn't keep trying to call and call trying to get the girls alone. He knew exactly when all of them were alone and called. He did his homework. He was stalking them and their families. The same w Amy.
To say that any knew her killer then we would have to say the other girls also knew him too. What are the odds of that? The killer just happens to be the Gardner, barber, teacher, etc of all several girls and their families and after 30 yrs the police and fbi never once made this connection???
Okay....
What I find very odd is this:
Amy was abducted around 2:15-2:30 PM.
Amys Mothers received the call from Amy at approximately 3:30pm.
So at least an hour passed between her abduction and the call.
Amy could not have called the plaza. What did the killer do, hang around there in broad daylight for a hour w Amy then after an hour let her call??
That doesn't make any sense. Amy may have called from the place where she had been killed.
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